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Lumpenproletariat
Is a dumb term.
What's the point of making this class distinction? A low-level drug dealer is petit-bourgeois, a prostitute is proletarian, a mob boss is bourgeois. The only difference is that they operate outside of the legal marketplace, the class relations are the same.
Have at it.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
Lumpenproletariat are the section of the proletariat who think they have more to gain by being counter-revolutionary and fighting against leftists, trade unionists and progressives. Also, low-level drug dealers aren't petit-bourgeois.
How are they not?
And huge sections of the "legitimate" proletariat don't think that?
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
I agree with you Fawkes, but I think it is a term to describe the lowest of the low. The Lumpenproletariat being the lowest hemisphere of the proletariat.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
De Ja Vu with this thread
I think all of Marx's definition of classes need to be re-evaluated or at least shouldn't be used too strictly for instance a city banker sells his labour to an employer which he gets paid shit loads for where as someone with a small business will earn relatively little but the banker would be of a lower class. Originally Marx includes rag and bone men and beggars in the lumpenproletariat, this is because they do not produce any productive labour and also no one directly extracts profit from their labour. For me the lumpenproletariat should be defined as someone whose interests are not the same as the proletariat and who make a living by damaging the proletariat. Marx says like the petit-bourgeoisie some may decide to side with the workers I think low level drug dealers would be 50-50 if it came down to it. The reason I would include low level dealers in the lumpenproletariat is that they are more likely to be involved in petty crime such as mugging or theft and no I'm not talking about the guy who sits in his bedroom and sells you weed I'm talking about dealers standing on the corner or in shooting galleries selling white and brown.
Marx said that the lumpen are the refuse of all classes personally I think this was a bit of snobbery on his part.
Not really....Professional drug dealers, pimps, house robbers, etc have a very different mindset to ordinary working class people and often they are made up of the psychopathtic elements of all classes (especially as you near the top of the lumpen hierarchy).
Marx used the term class and identified the classes he did in various different contexts. For example in Capital Vol III Marx identifies three classes of capitalism: the proletariat, bourgeoisie and landowners. In other contexts Marx speaks of the petit-bourgeoisie, the state bureacracy and yes, the lumpenproletariat.
Nic.
Last edited by Niccolò Rossi; 12th December 2010 at 01:03.
Yeah definitely. I've read on irishrepublican.net how all the once strong working class republican areas in the north of Ireland that were able to withstand the Brit army and the loyalist death squads are now on their knees as a result of all the lumpens who get a free pass from the cops for their activities. your sig's right. The lumpenproletariat are the bourgeoisie's best friends
"The spiritual atom bomb that the revolutionary people possess is a far more powerful and useful weapon than the physical atom bomb"
-Lin Biao
Prostitutes are definitely working class; Marx had been affected by his surrounding culture while classifying them wrongly as lumpen. As for beggars and other people who remain unemployed, don't they somehow help in extraction of greater surplus value from workers by enlarging the available labour pool ? So indirectly capitalists profit from their miserable condition. This is a kind of exploitation too. So someone who has only his labour power to sell but does not get the opportunity to do so should also be considered as a proletarian.
Its a repetition of the stratergy that was perfected in Dublin. The cops here always side with the lumpens against the working class for whatever reason. My sig though isnt saying that they are their best friends...Its saying that they share the same values.
There are beggars and beggars though...I have begged in a couple of situations where I basically had no other choice...But there are such thing as professional beggars or people who will use begging as an add on to robbing houses, thieving, selling drugs, etc.
Oh for sure, I totally agree but I was mainly talking about the rag and bone men, beggars and prostitutes. That's why the concept of the lumpenprolatariat doesn't make sense.
They commit crimes against the proletariat and hence are lumpen elements.
When we talk about prostitution we have to look at so many contexts....Is a high class escort in New York part of the working class? I would say no. Is some girl working in a brothel in India or Thailand part of the working class? I would say yes.
Reminds me of what I've read about the CIA apparently filling up African-American areas with drugs to take out the Black Panthers. Can't put anything past the upper classes
Yeah, I meant that they're best friends in how the lumpens serve the bourgeoisie's interests perfectly
"The spiritual atom bomb that the revolutionary people possess is a far more powerful and useful weapon than the physical atom bomb"
-Lin Biao
Look though there is this nasty "street" culture out there that is very much about looking after number one and is very hierarchical...That is the lumpenproletariat.
You should read this article (and its not Maoist or M-L but its spot on)... http://www.iwca.info/?p=10134 .
I thought of the latter one while referring to prostitutes.
In the western world for me at least the whole topic of "sex work" is a complex issue...I think I would have to discuss fully in an all female group (because it is a sensitive issue) before coming to a "Line".
Proletarians with low class consciousness can be subsumed under the term "Lumpenproletariat".
No they cant.
Proletarians with low class conciousness dont break into the house of eldery working class people and rob what little they have.
