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Are Lumpenproletarier necessarily criminals? I don't think so.
Than what exactly are they?
One majior problem with a lot of the left in England and to a lesser extent in Ireland is dismissing "lower" working class as "lumpen" when they just arent....One comrade on here talked about being told to go from an anti-fascist demonstration because he was obviously a "tough" "lower" working class kid.
Believe me, females are not the only sex workers.Originally Posted by Palingenesis
Why the need for the separate distinction though?Originally Posted by Burn A Flag
No, they don't always have a different mindset, as if all working-class people had the same mindset anyway. And you're missing the point of what I'm saying. A drug distributor does not have the same relation to the means of production as a street-level dealer does, they are not all the same and it's idiotic to categorize them as such.Originally Posted by Palingenesis
Yes.Originally Posted by red cat
What are you talking about? Lumpens against the working-class?Originally Posted by Palingenesis
So people steal and rob as a means to get by, you're telling me they wouldn't benefit from a revolution?
Also, I know people who have jobs and still rob and steal from people, so how would you classify them?
They both are. They both have to sell their labor power for a wage.
Proletarians are the bourgeois's best friends as they are the ones responsible for making them wealthy.Originally Posted by Marxach-Léinínach
Yes, it is hierarchical, which is why to classify everyone that makes a living by illegal means as all members of the same class is incredibly stupid. As I said before, the drug importer has a different relation to the means of production as a street-level dealer.Originally Posted by Palingenesis
No, they're proletarians with low class consciousness. Do you have any idea how many proletarians here in the U.S. call themselves middle class? How's that for low class consciousness? Are they lumpens?Originally Posted by Rotfront
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
I gave a link that described it perfectly.
http://www.iwca.info/?p=10134
At community meeting near where I live with tons of cops snopping outside lumpens burst in and slashed someone's throat. Lumpen elements in Dublin regularly try to enforce their will on working class neighbourhoods through the barrel of a gun. They rob our homes and try to fuck up our kids on drugs (and in a country with hardly any rehab for heroin we are talking whats next to a death sentence).
Scumbags who need their heads kicked in or a bullet in the calf of their legs or maybe if they are especially bad their actual knee caps?
Speaking as a victim of lumpens; they need to have their fucking head kick in. none of you bastard never had a person pull a gun out on you or almost come to your house and try to put a fucking bullet in your head. we lost soul around here. those motherfuckers must die.
Yes, cause you know all about what I've been through ya fuckin prick.
P.S. I have been robbed at gunpoint
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
actually I have I've also been stabbed twice
then you should know; why they fucker need to be ice.
No, I should know why the motherfuckers that put those guys in a position where the only way they could get by was by robbing someone need to be iced (i.e. bourgeois). It's not like I'm an apologist for what they're doing, but I recognize the dire position they're in. I'm not supporting someone who is going into a project apartment and robbing some old man, I am disputing the notion of all people that operate within the illegal marketplace as being of the same class and having the same relations to the means of production.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
Oh shit.....I have had to beg in order to eat....No one is condemning shoplifting.....But robbing from those who have fuck all in the first place is scumbaggery end of story.
but they don't have the same relation to the means of production they go another way
Thats actually a very working class attitude among the working class who live among or near lumpens.
And they are often hired as scabs or recruited into death squads.
I was a lumpen that's why I've had a gun to my head and been stabbed twice. Luckily I found a way out
They would still benefit from a revolution, thus making them potential allies. And yes, obviously they're committing "scumbag" acts, I'm not disputing that.
What do you mean they go another way? A pimp and a prostitute = bourgeois and proletarian; street-level dealer = petit-bourgeois; distributor = bourgeois.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
They dont think in those terms though...Seriously at least in Ireland they seem very much tied into the system. The point is they dont think collectively as in they dont think about the wider community and how they have a stake in it...They think me, me, me...Just like capitalists do.
What do you mean by lumpen though?
Lumpen isnt just a council estate kid who fucks up a bit.
And just like a lot of individualistic, non-class conscious proletarians do. Isn't the whole point of raising class consciousness to get those that are subjugated to view things collectively and do away with the "me first" mentality engendered by capitalism? That is not just restricted to lumpens.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
No they dont...They might not be socialist but they have some sense of solidarity or at least basic human decency.Originally Posted by Fawkes;1954998[B
