The Dreaded Thought

[trivas7]

Thinking re the anniversary of the death of John Lennon -- a visionary if there ever was one -- it strikes me that the dreaded thought most rev leftists refuse to admit is that perhaps the working class is not capable of managing its own affairs. That workers have the need for entrepreneurial skills and the talents of visionaries, pioneers, and the crazies in art and science that have made the most contributions to the way the world looks today (if you think Lennon could have existed in a socialist world, look again). Entrepreneurism and voluntarism are the goals of any rational society; where in a socialist world do they fit in?

[Bud Struggle]

Interesting film from PBS: How the Beatles Rocked the Kremlin. The filmmaker takes the position that the Beatles were in part for the downfall of the Soviet Union.

http://www.thirteen.org/beatles/vide...he-kremlin/36/

On your original point, though: I think all of Capitalism is based on that idea.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Reading yr post, it strikes me that assuming the working class isn't full of visionaries, pioneers, and crazies is some elitist bullshit.
Further, where the fuck has the project of building a "rational" society gotten us - capitalist, socialist, or otherwise?

[RGacky3]

Thinking re the anniversary of the death of John Lennon -- a visionary if there ever was one -- it strikes me that the dreaded thought most rev leftists refuse to admit is that perhaps the working class is not capable of managing its own affairs. That workers have the need for entrepreneurial skills and the talents of visionaries, pioneers, and the crazies in art and science that have made the most contributions to the way the world looks today (if you think Lennon could have existed in a socialist world, look again). Entrepreneurism and voluntarism are the goals of any rational society; where in a socialist world do they fit in?

A visionary? He wrote good songs, so have a lot of people, almost none of which, were pro-capitalist, John Lennon was a socialist.

[#FF0000]

I lost a lot of friends when I put "Happy Birthday John Lennon" as my facebook status the other day.

[RGacky3]

you have a lot of crappy friends.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't know what you mean by "voluntarism" but entrepreneurship has only been around for a few hundred years and only considered a virtue for maybe 200 years at most. Ever heard the term "new money"? Really until the Victorian age, birthright was considered a much greater social virtue than being "self-made" or being an entrepreneur.

What has allowed societies to develop art, culture, inventions and so on depends mostly on there being a surplus created by that society. Early feudalism was relatively stagnant because surplus was small and spread out among many localized ruling classes. In the later middle ages increased centralization of wealth allowed larger powers like the Church and Kings to invest more into art academies. Capitalism is the most dynamic class system that has occurred and so there has been a lot more surplus, but even then the initial capital depended on stealing most of it either by forced labor, or creating private ownership out of once common areas (like all of North and South America, and parts of Asia and Africa).

Without a social surplus, it does not matter how creative an individual is or could become. So the real question is who controls the surplus and to what purpose it is put. In feudalism a lot of surplus went to glorify the aristocrats, church, and monarchy to reinforce the sense that they are the rightful rulers of society. Under capitalism, surplus becomes capital for reinvestment on the basis of what will produce the most profits and returns. While this is more dynamic and progressive than feudalism or slave-societies it is hardly a rational (let alone democratic or "fair") way to organize surplus our collective labor creates: spending resources to develop analogues to Viagra or stress pills may be profitable, but it is hardly a rational goal for a society where people still die of treatable illness due to a lack of access. Developing plants that do not create seeds in order to “patent” seeds is hardly a rational use of resources in a society where millions of people starve and grain and milk is dumped to help countries compete with each other economically is not rational.

As for people like John Lennon, he was able to devote his life to music and then art because of a fluke – despite the system, not because of it and he was keenly aware that if it had not been part of the Beatles, he would have ended up a working class “joe” like the people he grew up with. For every Dominican baseball player or working class kid that makes it as an actor or musician, there are probably tens of thousands of other who never get the shot and millions who never even have any chance to develop their skills or interests. Look at the Beatles early music – it was because they could devote the time to develop their skills, meet and work with people who had more skills than they did, that they could develop beyond most pop-bands of that time.

In a world where people collectively and democratically control surplus and our labor, there would also be a democratization of skills as more people would have the time and ability to study the science, art, or practical skills that they want. Then anyone will be able to live to their potential rather than having to put their hobbies and dreams on hold in order to work 8+ hours just to survive… imagine that!

[#FF0000]

imagine that!

I wonder if you can

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Thinking re the anniversary of the death of John Lennon -- a visionary if there ever was one -- it strikes me that the dreaded thought most rev leftists refuse to admit is that perhaps the working class is not capable of managing its own affairs. That workers have the need for entrepreneurial skills and the talents of visionaries, pioneers, and the crazies in art and science that have made the most contributions to the way the world looks today (if you think Lennon could have existed in a socialist world, look again). Entrepreneurism and voluntarism are the goals of any rational society; where in a socialist world do they fit in?

Where does voluntarism fit in when thousands of young men are forced to go to southeast asia and kill?

Was it entrepreneurship to make and sell agent orange to clear forests?

How many tons of high explosives do you need to drop on a country before the myth of voluntarism and freedom are completely obliterated?





-thread closed-

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Further, where the fuck has the project of building a "rational" society gotten us - capitalist, socialist, or otherwise?

It got us out of the muck of previous societies. As much as capitalism sucks, feudalism sucks worse.

The universe before the Enlightenment was a dark and scary place, ruled by the whims of a tyrannical God and/or other fickle supernatural beings. Everybody had their social station and to deviate from it was to be an outlaw.

What's most galling is that you're most likely some pampered Westerner who's never lived in a world without electricity, so your continuing anti-rationalism is a source of contempt.

[Manic Impressive]

eeeerrrr..............John Lennon was working class you're not using that bull shit argument that the oppression of the working class produces better art and music are you?
because if you are

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It seems that trivas7 has a habit of occasionally starting threads wherein he makes a pompous ass of himself.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The universe before the Enlightenment was a dark and scary place, ruled by the whims of a tyrannical God and/or other fickle supernatural beings. Everybody had their social station and to deviate from it was to be an outlaw.

Thank you for yr concise history of everywhere. It's good to see you've done yr research.

[Robert]

It really bothers me that Lennon played Gibson acoustics when he had the dough to buy Martins. He must have had a reason but I'm damned if I can figure it out.

I also think Lennon was a lazy sum*****, for real, lying in bed with Yoko all day strumming that stupid Gibson like this enlightened guru while I was out bustin' my ass on oil rigs. He was a great rocker in the very early days, but god he got on my nerves. And Imagine really makes me ill. The piano is out of tune. Ever notice that? Why didn't he tune the piano?

Answer: lazy sum*****.

[Revolution starts with U]

Gibson has a very classic and smooth sound. I prefer them.
On some of your other points I agree tho. Lennon is a great guy when you're just being introduced. And the music (especially the Beatles) is heavenly (imo).
But when you learn why they guy who killed him did it... I kind of agree with him (except for the whole killing part).
How are you going to ask me to imagine no possessions from your high rise in downtown NYC while you tell the crew to start up the yacht?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Thank you for yr concise history of everywhere. It's good to see you've done yr research.

So what particular society in history do you hark back to that's just so wonderful, eh?

[Jalapeno Enema]

Thinking re the anniversary of the death of John Lennon -- a visionary if there ever was one -- it strikes me that the dreaded thought most rev leftists refuse to admit is that perhaps the working class is not capable of managing its own affairs.

//

really?

And so the upper-class is better qualified to manage everybody's affairs?

[#FF0000]

Oh this reminds me. One of my mom's closest friends was the emergency nurse who was there when Lennon was brought in to the hospital.

[#FF0000]

That's right. Someone I know failed to save someone famous.

[Revolution starts with U]

The entrepreneur has just as much right to run his affairs as the worker does.
THAT is the whole point.

Edit for clarity; take it in reverse as well.