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What's up with soldiers
A lot of people on the left seem to be inline with the whole "I support the troops, not the war" or something like that, where they view low level military personnel as being victims and pawns and see the commanding officers and bourgeois as the real enemy. That's all fine and everything, but how come nobody on the left ever views cops in the same manner? With all the ACAB stuff on the left (not that I disagree with it) there seems to be a discontinuity in ideology. The only real difference between soldiers and cops is that one enforces and protects private property and the bourgeois in foreign environments and the other does so domestically.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
Because Soldiers don't shoot at them.
Well, there are a lot of reactionary-ass soldiers out there, so I don't really hold one view concerning the whole group.
What should be much more concerning is the Officer Corps, which is not only obviously reactionary, but (IIRC, I'll try to find source on this) increasingly coming from the same 5 states. It's basically becoming a military caste, which is much harder to sway to revolutionary politics IMO. These people have their own specific culture and less connection with the rest of the country (in the US, I mean).
I don't see much of a difference between the modern US officer corps and the Cossacks of the Tsar. At least it seems to be shaping up that way.
... To live – does it not mean to have indomitable faith in victory?
Are you saying cops shoot at people where you live?
There is a huge difference between conscripts and mercenaires.
This, definitely this.
"We are free, truly free, when we don't need to rent our arms to anybody in order to be able to lift a piece of bread to our mouths."
- Ricardo Flores Magón
"I am resolved to struggle against everything and everybody."
- Emiliano Zapata
Tell that to an Iraqi.
I understand that, I'm talking about my personal experience living in the U.S. where the draft no longer exists.
Yeah, you're definitely right about the formation of a caste of sorts, and I don't think many on the left would disagree with you about the position held by military officers. What I'm more concerned with is the totally different attitudes exhibited toward a 1st year private in the Army and a first year NYPD cop.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
I'm saying I've never seen a Soldier with a police bat.
I'm sure most Iraqi leftists don't think of Soldiers the way you described in the OP. You're pretty much misunderstanding my argument I assume. People can excuse the actions of their army's low Soldiers because they don't have to deal with them.
Yeah, I know, which is the origin of this inconsistency.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
If soldiers had police bats that would be a serious step down in equipment.
It's because in America (I'm talking about America since I am only aware of this in America, I don't know about this attitude in other places) it's basically seen as incredibly unacceptable to not support the troops. This is why so many leftists believe "support the troops, not the war". I've heard many leftists argue that it is the anti-war crowd that truly supports the troops.
It seems like a kind of holdover from back when we still had the draft in the US, UK, etc. (some European countries still have some kind of mandatory military training). "It worked for the left in the 1970s, so why should we change the formula even though reality now is totally different?"
With a bit of imagination, you could even pin it on the tendency of the left to try and regard every issue in society as if it were still 1917, and soldiers are still faceless, starving peasant conscripts in World War I...
Of course, it's still true that a lot of people enlist out of economic necessity, but I wouldn't exactly say that our view of military service can be directly copied from how the left felt about it 40 or 90 years ago...
What's the matter Lagerboy, afraid you might taste something?
Shoot at who? If you mean civilians, yes, yes they do
[FONT="Courier New"] “We stand for organized terror - this should be frankly admitted. Terror is an absolute necessity during times of revolution. Our aim is to fight against the enemies of the Revolution and of the new order of life. ”
― Felix Dzerzhinsky [/FONT]
لا شيء يمكن وقف محاكم التفتيش للثورة
For your convenience, I'll point out the flaw of this argument:
You're being very unclear.
What people are you referring to? Because people in occupied countries certainly have to deal with soldiers.
I wont support troops or cops, as soon as they obtain their badge or uniform, they become agents of oppression. However, that doesn't mean to say I wont understand the conditions that make young and disaffected workers sign up for the army. I sympathize with them and even feel for them, but the nature of the contract they sign and the work they do ultimately makes them enemies of our movement, and we will eventually have no choice but to oppose them.
I'm the Laird of the land, I'm hot like Pol Pot.'A true white liberal.' - Sword and Shield (on me)
'i am a communism fer a long years.' - twenty percent tip
FKA Mahmoud Ahmerdinnerjacket
SWAG1
Most of the people on this website live in countries that are not occupied by a foreign military force. I live in the U.S., Widerstand in Germany, we both subsequently interact with leftists that live in our home countries, both of which are unoccupied. Much of our interactions with leftists from other parts of the world are done through this website. Seeing as how most users of this website don't actively face repression and violence from a military force, many hold the view that soldiers are victims, unlike cops, because those are the people they're confronted by every day. That is the origin of this problem and why I find it necessary for it to be addressed.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
First of all, police, unlike enlistees or conscripts can leave the job anytime they want if they find it distasteful. Police officers are more like military officers than enlistees or conscripts who are workers and will have to go back and get a job when their time is done. We can win over individual policemen to our politics, but then they'd have to quit being cops because you can't be a socialist cop, just imagine what happens when there is a strike... not only do you HAVE to cross the picket line, but your job will be protecting scabs and helping the bosses break the strike!
Enlistees are often lied to by recruiters and the US spends millions to advertise enlisting to working class kids with little prospects for employment - most ads and recruiters start by telling people the job training and skills they will learn. A policeman is generally a careerist and so they are not lied to about the benefits they are lied to about how the public will shoot them on sight if they detect weakness in cops and how protesters will shoot chemical agents against them and try and dose them with LSD (seriously, my relatives are cops and it's amazing the things they are told by their superiors in order to make them dehumanize the general population).
When a soldier is caught in something like Abu Grade torturing pictures, the military throws them under the bus and blames them for what is unspoken SOP - like burning Vietnamese villages or torturing prisoners. When a cop gets caught doing something bad, the police close ranks and do everything to perserve their special position in society. This special position in society is that cops are encouraged to live above the law - not only do they get paid much higher wages than most workers ($90K in Oakland) but they get the best legal defense through their "union" and they are virtually untouchable by the law.
Soldiers on the other hand, make shit money, and are treated as fodder in the military. The way that class is reflected inside the military means that solders who enlist for job opportunities realize too late that they just became indentured servants and that "success" at their job means killing and being shot at so that their higher ups get promotions.
Ooh I didn't see that...
I just replied to yours first.
But Iraqi leftists despise the soldiers.
[FONT="Courier New"] “We stand for organized terror - this should be frankly admitted. Terror is an absolute necessity during times of revolution. Our aim is to fight against the enemies of the Revolution and of the new order of life. ”
― Felix Dzerzhinsky [/FONT]
لا شيء يمكن وقف محاكم التفتيش للثورة
Yes, they'll be jobless, but yes.
That is no different from soldiers though. You can't be a socialist U.S. Marine any more than you can be a socialist LAPD officer.
They're careerists, yes, and that is a fundamental difference, but they are lied to just as much as soldiers are. Many cops go in with the impression that they'll be helping their community and "stopping bad guys", just like a lot of soldiers join to defend their country.
That's not entirely true. An example would be the recent uncovering of taped conversations at a Brooklyn precinct where officers were briefed on the necessity of meeting quotas and other bullshit stuff, and some of the officers were then deemed to be mentally unfit and transferred.
So are soldiers when in an occupied territory.
Okay, so some soldiers realize upon their enlisting what position they actually hold and what they are being used for, but some cops do also. Soldiers are continually brainwashed throughout their enlisted time as are cops.
Edit: 2,000 posts, WHAT! WHAT!?!?!
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
