the 40th anniversary of the 'page 3 model'

[gorillafuck]

This says everything that we could need to hear about how feminists really feel about the working classes: deeply-held contempt borne of arrogant liberal-intellectual elitism. If you want to be a socialist, stop patronising the working classes and support us for a change instead of sneering at how stupid working class people are.

Ya know, there's a not-so-hard to see line between being a patronizing psuedo-intellectual and between thinking everyone is a dumbass.

It is an exploitative industry, as a socialist I believe that any exploitative industry should be destroyed. I oppose the pornography industry just like I oppose sex slavery and the drug trade, all three of these things are actually very closely related, they rely on each other and I bet if you took out one of them the other two would see a sharp fall.

There's a difference between opposing the pornography industry and opposing pornography, as there is a difference between opposing the soft drink industry and opposing soft drinks.

[9]

Morals don't even come into it, anyone with even the most basic understanding of society can recognise that the sex industry is far more degrading and exploitative than say, the retail industry, or the construction industry.

This is called 'moralizing'.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Page 3 isn't the problem with The Sun. The problem with The Sun is that it's a right-populist rag that consistently spews reactionary shit.

For example, The Sun will work itself into a frothing fit over any remotely humane treatment that prisoners get, especially if they were involved in high-profile cases involving children. Speaking of children, The Sun's obsession with paedophiles is something such that, were it to manifest in a person, would likely have them committed to a mental institution.

[communard resolution]

The fact is the people who actually read those things and laugh are probably just as if not more intellectually challanged than the page 3 girls themselves.

How do you know these girls are intellectually challenged?

[Quail]

I think the whole point of it "enforce a strict definition of what 'beauty' means and is" is stupid. Most people dont think page3 girls are the most buetiful women ever or the definiton of beauty. And even if they are viewed, judging by Sun readers i know, they havnt gone for the criteria set by page 3 girls when picking their partners.

Although I don't agree with the objectification of women in "lad mags" and on page 3, I don't think that those images have much of an impact on women's self esteem. I actually find that magazines aimed at women are very sexist in the way that they tell women how to be attractive, get a man (ignoring that we're not all straight), lose weight, etc. and the way that they admire women that look a certain way (which is often unhealthy, photoshopped and unattainable).

[Manic Impressive]

Would it be ok if they had a man in speedos on page 2?

cause I know quite a few women and men who would like that, would it be less sexist if both genders were equally represented?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Would it be ok if they had a man in speedos on page 2?

cause I know quite a few women and men who would like that, would it be less sexist if both genders were equally represented?

Of course if both pictures were there to serve the sexual desires of the audience, both genders would be equally represented. But the fact is that, due to the historical contexts that put topless women on page 3, this wont happen.

Men have never been objectified in the way that women have. As was said earlier, if you see a man wearing a speedo in a newspaper, he is advertising speedos! He is glorified by the male consumer audience who view the model as a model for their own appearance. His image is not there to entertain the women, or men, who enjoy seeing an objectification of the gender they are sexually attracted to. In this sense, the case for a male model on page 2 isn't really there, as the sociological conditions for the objectification of men don't exist. If it was there, then we would be living in a more equal world.

[Palingenisis]

Yeah I thought my post about enforces a strict definition of beauty was a bit tenuous. Very good points made by everyone, thanks for the replies. I never realised how mocking and degrading it was - thanks for that bailey. And the people that say it is "just a bit of harmless fun" are dickheads. On a wider subject, do you think that pornography and other similar jobs and whatnot are inherently sexist? Or are they only so in a commodity society? I.e., where it is degrading; where women sell themselves. What do you think?

As regards the porn the question I would ask people who defend it is how would they feel about their mum or their sister or the mum of their kids doing it? Since liberalization porn has become more and more disconnected from a normal, healthy (taking sex to being about uniting with another person) sexuality. Its very easy for a girl to tell in the bedroom if a man has watched to much porn because of his whole approach to sex.

I wouldnt count page three as porn though. Like you I didnt realize that mockery was involved until now.

I would though find the extreme nationalism you often find in English newspapers (The Daily Mail being the most way out) more worrying than a photo of a pretty girl topless.

[Palingenisis]

The guy who wrote this is a real creep but does contain a lot of home truths...

http://takimag.com/article/the_probl..._hipster_porn/

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I would though find the extreme nationalism you often find in English newspapers (The Daily Mail being the most way out) more worrying than a photo of a pretty girl topless.

Its all part of the same deal though. Backward thinking, sexism, nationalism, xenophobia, racism, conservative politics and the rest of it. We should be worrying more about The Sun and the rest of the right-wing media in general, and all of the shit that goes with them.

[NKVD]

This is called 'moralizing'.

This is called sexism.

[Spawn of Stalin]

How do you know these girls are intellectually challenged?

I don't, but as bailey pointed out, the Sun portrays them as such.

[Spawn of Stalin]

This is called 'moralizing'.

Then we are all guilty of it when we say that wage labour is a form of exploitation, so what? You can attatch whatever words you like to my train of thought, I'd like to see you try and deny that the porn industry is fucked up. Debate the facts, not semantics.

[Palingenisis]

Its all part of the same deal though. Backward thinking, sexism, nationalism, xenophobia, racism, conservative politics and the rest of it. We should be worrying more about The Sun and the rest of the right-wing media in general, and all of the shit that goes with them.

Okay fair enough.

I think that porn though is a very serious issue and one that is tied in with sex abuse, drug abuse and worse. There is a huge difference between "films" that show things like double penetration which must be incredibly painful and the "actress" is portraying herself as "loving" it and page 3 though and some people here arent making that distinction it seems to me. Prettiness and admiring (or even lusting after) prettiness isnt essentially sexist.

[bailey_187]

As regards the porn the question I would ask people who defend it is how would they feel about their mum or their sister or the mum of their kids doing it?

Most people would not be happy, but most people dont like the thought of close relatives having sex at all, whether the act is recorded.

[gorillafuck]

As regards the porn the question I would ask people who defend it is how would they feel about their mum or their sister or the mum of their kids doing it?

Whereas people love the idea of their male relatives being in porn?

I'm sorry but that's just a really horrible argument. I object to the practices of the porn industry, but being inherently against videos of people having sex is not a progressive or anti-sexist viewpoint.

[Quail]

Whereas people love the idea of their male relatives being in porn?

There is a different attitude towards men having sex than women. If you're a man it's seen as a good thing to sleep with lots of women, whereas if you're a woman you're labelled a slut. That might not directly relate to porn, but I thought I would point that out.

[gorillafuck]

There is a different attitude towards men having sex than women. If you're a man it's seen as a good thing to sleep with lots of women, whereas if you're a woman you're labelled a slut. That might not directly relate to porn, but I thought I would point that out.

I know that, but that isn't related to what I was responding to or what I said.

Her argument against porn was that people wouldn't like it if their moms or sisters did porn. My point about that argument is that most people would find it equally uncomfortable if any of their relatives did porn because most people don't like the idea of their relatives doing porn.

[Quail]

Her argument against porn was that people wouldn't like it if their moms or sisters did porn. My point about that argument is that most people would find it equally uncomfortable if any of their relatives did porn because most people don't like the idea of their relatives doing porn.

Although people wouldn't like any of their relatives doing porn, I think that the families of female porn actors would be more protective of their mother/sister/daughter. It's expected that men are going to have a lot of sex, and I doubt that a male porn star would be seen as a slut for acting in porn, but a woman probably would. Women are often objectified as "dirty sluts".
That's really poorly worded, sorry. I'm ill and tired.

[gorillafuck]

Although people wouldn't like any of their relatives doing porn, I think that the families of female porn actors would be more protective of their mother/sister/daughter. It's expected that men are going to have a lot of sex, and I doubt that a male porn star would be seen as a slut for acting in porn, but a woman probably would. Women are often objectified as "dirty sluts".
That's really poorly worded, sorry. I'm ill and tired.

That's true.

But it's not an argument against pornography. Palingenisis was using it as an argument against pornography.