why would the us blame bin laden even if it wasn't him?

[gooddoctor]

i think a lot of people are wondering what bush is up to at the moment. can anyone explain to me what the yanks have to gain from going about this investigation as they have done thus far, i.e. without doing an investigation at all before declaring all out war and stepping up military operations in the gulf dramatically. surely there's a better way. i have some suspicions of my own but i'm interested to know if anyone else has been dwelling on this.

it's possible that bush is doing this for selfish reasons, perhaps thinking about what it will say under his name in the history books. as long as it's written objetively it shouldn't be too kind. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy, he's such a simpleton, i wonder if he really knows what he's doing.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 3:03 am on Sep. 22, 2001)

[RedCeltic]

I think that the evidence was enough to convince themselves... and they wanted a reason to go after him anyway considering the investigation on the bombing of US embesies in Africa. Therefore, since he has already been convicted of international terrorism they see little point in investigating, and proving beyond a doubt the recent attack.

However it seems that everyone is just taking them at their word that this mountain of evidence exists, and proves beyond a doubt that it was Bin Laden.

This is quite a diffrent approch than the Democrats that where in power recently took. People where not as outraged at attacks that occured overseas so there was no cause to rush into things. Now Americans are outraged and Bush wanting to be seen as a man of action rushes in, without a full investigation. I Suppose you can say that the general public is alowing him to take premature action because they are so enraged. It is quite hard to think rationaly when you are so blinded by rage and lust for revenge. I know myself for that's the very same thing that affected me at first. If he can pull it off, he would have a good chance to get re-elected, a better one than if he did nothing.

Even rational intelegent people like Senitor Hillery Clinton are supporting Bush... which makes you realize just how blinding rage can be.

[gooddoctor]

but you have to ask yourself, what if osama bin laden had nothing personally to do with the attacks? this must have crossed the us administration's mind. that would mean that the us is hunting for him at massive public expense and the risk of sparking war with the militant section of the muslim community whilst the real perpetrators (be they supporters of obl or not) run free. wouldn't that be an embarrassment for the bush administration?

or you could look at the military operations in the middle east as simply a cover to satisfy the american public's need for swift action and revenge whilst the real investigation goes on behind the scenes. what a show! it certainly directs attention away from the fact that the cia and the fbi have few solid leads.

[RedCeltic]

Also... on the 2000 election... I had fully expected a close election, however one of Gore Vs McCaine. I didn't expect Bush to win the primary because he's such a radical right while his opponent was more of a moderate. This past election was shocking to me as I saw a radical right wing republican become dead even with a moderate Democrat. If the Republicans are now becoming extremist right in iterest of the "Christian colittion" etc... and the Democrates are becoming less libral and more moderate... well we are in clear need of a third party... for who is for the working class and poor?

Of course, the interests of the workers can not truly be met under the curent system of a free market. But their voices should be heard, even in the oppressive present system.

[RedCeltic]

I think the latter is more to the point. It's a means to pacify the general public that the Government has taken swift action.

[pce]

i don't know. don't you guys think bin laden should be caught anyway? he is a terrorist who targets civilians...

[gooddoctor]

redeltic, so who is there to tell the working people that an alternative exists? socialism is an ugly word in the american dictionary, synonymous with stalinism, anti-americanism, oppression. don't forget, lee harvey oswald was one of the most famous american socialists (more for his deed than any political reasons), and how many regular joes do you know who would be caught dead sympathising with him. until these illusions are removed nothing can be done to introduce a third way and put an end to the two (or was it just one) party system and the inadequate education system and corporate media institutions are just way too powerful to ever let that happen. most americans just want to get on with the day to day struggle of their lives and view politics as something way beyond their grasp and best left to the professionals. as soon as they realise that problems people face during their lives (being made redundant, being paid less than the bosses for doing their work, being evicted from their homes, innercity pollution, terrorist attacks against citizens etc...) aren't isolated problems to be fought by themselves, but are essentially all linked back to the greatest demon of the western world - capitalism.

pce, i agree, it would be a good thing for the world to be rid of osama bin laden once and for all. but at the expense of inciting war in the middle east, the investigation and even the american public? don't you think they (not to mention the millions of muslims who will get caught up in the conflict) deserve a little more than just a war for show?

(Edited by gooddoctor at 4:34 am on Sep. 22, 2001)

[azwethinkweiz]

"it's possible that bush is doing this for selfish reasons, perhaps thinking about what it will say under his name in the history books. as long as it's written objetively it shouldn't be too kind. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy, he's such a simpleton, i wonder if he really knows what he's doing."

i kind of agree with this, i think some of this has to do with the fact that his daddy did it and now its his turn, and also the american economy is due for a recession, and war has been known to help economies out of recession. i dont think these are the only reasons hes doing alot of this, but i think they are contributing factors, as i said before hes kind of a cowboy.

[gooddoctor]

american presidents are notorious for inciting war with their minds on the history books. when will they learn that it is those who try to prevent war who are really celebrated rather than those who win them? anyone remember jfk?

[azwethinkweiz]

exactly!

[rebel7609]

Yeah, Bush is doing this so he'll have a cool mention in history books. Oh, and someone suggested Isreal was behind this (so I see now you guys hate the Jews too...) Heck, maybe Dubya even paid those guys to crash the planes so he'd be able to get us in a war!!!! Good grief. Sometimes I read the most ridiculous conspiracy theories here.
And as far as JFK- read a history book and don't rely just on the movies. He was involved in so many crooked things, covert operations, shady deals, assasination attempts... he makes Nixon look like an angel. Well... almost. (some things I just learned doing my research on my Che book). Back then, before the Watergate days there was something called a "gentleman's agreement" between the media and the Whitehouse and they did not report negative things about the president.

>Even rational intelegent people like Senitor Hillery Clinton
Puh-LEEZE. Even a fence-riding feminist like myself is offended by this description of her......

[gooddoctor]

rebel, i only suggested that the president was doing this because of the history books to encourage people to think. it is perfectly valid and reasonable to expect that bush, like any other president, is desperate to be remembered well. it is practically his function and raison d'etre.

there are many more reasons why america would mobilise in the middle east, without having any evidence against bin laden, with ulterior motives, but i will explain my position later after i have given community members on this side of the atlantic a chance to speak.

[rebel7609]

You can explain your position- I'm not fighting with you. Just trying to have a discussion. Obviously, I don't know that much about our dealings with the middle east over the years. I'm learning new things every day about it. But I'm trying to learn them from legitimate news sources and books and not websites that post horribly deformed pictures of children and say "Americans did this!"

[gooddoctor]

sometimes you have to go to extreme places to balance out the propaganda effects of the corporate media. it is truly the new opiate of the people.

[DaNatural]

good doctor perhaps you might be thinking like i am, the way i feel about this is that, bin laden is the easiest person to target this for, and therefore gives the government an opportunity to go into the middle and pretty much overthrow any government they feel is supporting terrorism. afghanistan will not be the first, many others will follow, this will enable the americans to get a better foothold on the oil supplies and perhaps even control it, by positioning puppet politicians to do there dirty work in the country. this is my main idea, im not sure if yours is similar, i have another more radical conspiracy theory, im a firm beleiver that new world order/illuminati exists and this is just one of their chances to get a foothold on their total one world government. peace

[gooddoctor]

danatural, many of my arguments run along those lines. i'm especially intrigued by this illuminati - i've never heard of it before.

[DaNatural]

well, ill break it down real quick good doc, illuminati is an organization which started about 300 years ago they have formed into the new world order, which is basically the united nations what they want to do, is make it a one world government, one language one currency etc. this is actually pretty scary and most of this info is readily available on the illuminati official recruitment site. they are a secret society because as they say there leaders are secret and their means for acheiving their goal is a secret. know this tho, the most chilling thing about this group is that, they have set up a goal, when the foundation was started they made a plan that would take then 200-500 years to complete, that goal is for one world government and to reduce the worlds population down to 3 billion, now remember they said they will not disclose how they intend to do this. they recruit rhodes scholars(yes that means most presidents), they control the international banking system, they have set up a system of conflic so that their can be a divide in the world, started wars, supposedly even the communist manifesto was written by karl marx to supposedly create more divide in our society rich against poor, so a document which looks to be helping us in the end is really against us, it goes on and on thats a basic overview things get much worse. peace my email is [email protected] ill hook u up with more info u like. peace

[gooddoctor]

interesting danatural, i think i'll look into that one, if for nothing more than novelty value. but karl marx was the greatest philosopher that ever lived and his history and life lead to one thing, the communist manifesto. it was the product of years of philosphical thought and observations by a great mind. unfortunately, its relevancy today, whilst being strong, is tempered by the actions of individuals in history who have sullied its good name. stalin for one.

[one girl revolution]

It's been twelve days since the attack, and not one shot, figuratively or literally, has been fired. I don't think President Bush is rushing into anything.

[ozo]

bush was only supposed to be a one term president, looks like he'll be getting another term by the reaction of the americans unfortunatly. i think he wants to finish off his farthers dirty work. having bush as president is dangerous. i couldn't imagine this happening under clinton. anyway i heard that osama bin laden has something to do with the soft drinks industry so every time we open a can of coke we make him richer. i don't know if thats true but i wouldn't be surprised. it's quite funny actually.