"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists"

[Chancho]

Well, it's official - it's us and them - whether you like it or not. But I just want to clarify...

Is that Muslim v Christian? Oops, I'm an atheist.

Is that Middle Eastern v 'Western'? But, what if you live in a 'Western' country but don't subscribe to capitalism and 'Western' views?

Is that freedom v oppression? Oh, I didn't realise that they are mutually exclusive.

Is that brown faced, bearded Middle Eastern men v fat white blue eyed men? Oh no, I'm a female of various races.

Is that the 'undeveloped' world v the 'developed' world? Uh oh, I live in a sort of developed country but I have no personal wealth and don't believe in its accumulation - and I sympathise with people of undeveloped countries.

Is that peace-loving saint v evil terrorist demon? Sorry, which one is the terrorist again? It's hard to tell through the murky mire of media propaganda that is the 'free press'.

Is that right v wrong? Um, what if you think neither are entirely right or wrong?

But I forget ... the US government has just made my mind up for me by declaring that from this point on, only black and white exist - good and evil. No room for shades of grey, no room for alternatives, no negotiation, no choice ... and no place for tolerance, reason and differences.

[Drifter]

It was en extremely fatuous statement,
exceeded perhaps only by 'let your smile be your umbrella'
or 'what a totally un-Australian thing to do'

[FARABUNDO]

what a sorry "leader" the empire has, junior makes me sick, he can't even talk ...!

the whole establisment is rallying behind this moron !!

"good vs evil..." as he puts it..
"you with us or against us.." he says...

LADIES AN GENTS ATTENTION!!!




....... THE PUPPET HAS SPOKEN....




and the "free press" is parroting the same thing over and over.... makes me sick...


anyway....what else can we expect from the capitalist pigs....

[Moskitto]

I think if the American far right Christians get involved it could get very nasty because they'll turn a search for an terrorist into a crusade against islam.

[Chief Rebel Angel]

if those r my choices, then i'm with the "terrorists"... but who the fuck is junior to tell me what to be??! fuck him and fuck everyone who supports him...

[gooddoctor]

it's almost as if the us president is saying to everyone in the western world that if you do not support the bush administration then you are an enemy of the rest of us who do. this sounds to me like a maneuver by bush to practically make it un-pc not to support him and it's working a treat if the rise in support for his presidency is anything to go by.

[vox]

gooddoctor wrote, "it's almost as if the us president is saying to everyone in the western world that if you do not support the bush administration then you are an enemy of the rest of us who do."

Very good point, I think. I don't support Bush, never have. But maybe that's what the newly created Cabnet position is for: Office of Homeland Security.

Watch out, comrades. Don't forget the House Un-American Activities Committee. You think these boys don't play for real?

Now, thanks in part to media-inspired hysteria, we have our very own thought cop who will be around long after all of this is over, and he'll be investigating the likes of you, yes YOU, ya rotten commie bastard!

It's no longer an option not to support either side, apparently. Bush is going to control what you believe, and if you don't like it, off to the Camp with you. All done in the name of freedom, of course.

Am I too paranoid? History certainly doesn't think so, and she remembers things like the Sedition Act, the Palmer Raids, HUAC and COINTELPRO.

Do you?

vox

[vox]

Here's a very good piece about Bush's speech:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0921-07.htm


vox

[Guest]

This will turn into a witchhunt, just like it did in the 50's with the communists. People will be questioned about their origins and affiliations and eventually anyone or anything that is considered "un-patriotic" will suffer serious consequinces, which is compelete bullshit.

[Chancho]

Vox, that is an excellent article - thanks!

I can't help but think that the US government stand will ultimately backfire. People are not naive anymore about war - this is a post-Vietnam world - people are educated about American foreign policy through the decades. The general populous of the Earth does not normally support US policies and ideology. Anti-Americanism is going to increase - maybe it will take much more death (it usually does).

I feel for the American people - they can't see that their government is endangering their security for ages to come. They don't realise that what they are rallying behind will be the very thing that brings them directly into the firing line and ensures anti-American extremist ideology for years to come. The government is not the people - Americans must educate themselves as to who their enemies really are or perish.

[RedCeltic]

Personally... I think Bush was just throwing big words around without even knowing the extent of what he is saying. I truly don't think he realizes what "If your not with us your against us" implies. I think that he merely meant this as a treat to any nation that does not help them capture all terrorists and investigate in their country.

However, if he does have a deeper darker meaning communist persecutors like Ronald Regan and Joseph McCarthy will be nothing compared to the wrath of an "Anti-American hunt" that will not distinguish between liberal, radical, socialist, communist, anarchist, etc... If you're not with us you must be an enemy of the state!

And don't think it can't happen in the United States... Eugene V Debs was sentenced to ten years in prison for making anti war speeches in 1918. Sure that was a long time ago... however with this rise of nationalistic fervor in the US... one can only wonder if some may take things a bit too far...

Of course, I can't give him too much credit, and so think he simply used words larger than his vocabulary as much of his speeches are just one cliché after another... somewhat substituting powerful clichés for his lack of skills as an orator.


(Edited by RedCeltic at 7:40 pm on Sep. 21, 2001)

[gooddoctor]

chancho i think you're absolutely right. that's what amazes me the most. surely a man such as the president of the usa, a man who probably has access to more information then any other human being on this earth, must realise that, if anything, he is endangering his own us citizens. it's totally reckless and irresponsible. it sickens me too to see tony blair toadying to his every need and demand. atleast most other european politicians have the sense to advise caution. i just don't understand it; tony blair is probably the most popular prime minister for decades and to jepordise that in this unnecessary way dumbfounds me.

[Guest]

damnit !! that is exactly how I am feeling right now . . . I just thinkhe's being so stupid and simple minded about it all . . .

[rebel7609]

Maybe it's me being naive again, but I took it to mean that you support terrorism or you support the fight against it. But I guess it just depends on what you want to hear. You want to hear that he is trying to control you. I want to hear that everyone in the world will stop terrorism.
And I doubt if this Big Brother will come after you. Our gov't doesn't give a shit if you are Christian, Islamic, Irish, Arab, dark skinned or fat and white. That's why it's America. Besides, look at me. I'm a semi-conservative, Bush supporter (even though I WAS wavering when I started coming here.... you guys have sent me back into the right (as in vs. left, not wrong) corner) yet I hang out on a leftist website, chat on IM and exchange emails with many of you bonafied communists, have a giant five foot mural of Che Guevara hanging in my living room, photos of Che all over my office at work, and keep my original first print run copy of "la guerra de guerrillas" on my coffee table. I'm sure your Big Brother monsters would be awfully suspicious. Pah. I'm not too worried about someone looking for me and neither should you.
BUUUUUUUUUT- let me add that I'm not blind to our past mistakes. After studying some of the (real) facts of our past history, let me just add that I think that our foreign policy needs a major overhaul when this mess is over. I was very surprised to learn recently about things like our treatment of Afghanistan after the Soviets retreated (amongst other things).

[gooddoctor]

rebel i can't contain myself any longer. if you want to know my views on the current situation they are posted here at the uk guardian's discussion board. i think they will lead you down new paths of enquiry (my screen name there is mungodroo by the by):

http://talk.guardian.co.uk/[email protected]^[email protected]/0


(Edited by gooddoctor at 6:50 am on Sep. 22, 2001)

[DaNatural]

el che u hit it, he looks like a chimp and talks more like a toddler lol, and celtic i agree i dont think he knows what he is talking about. i took his speech yesterday as saying, like others have that it is between good and evil. i personally do not support this war, i think reviewing foreign policy and making good with countries who america has tortured is a better solution of course this will not happen. so i guess im against him, i see this yet again, as another way for the government to see who needs to be weeded out to make room for this one world government. hes basically drawing the lines right now. i was very shocked when i went to school today and heard people saying that was a great speech one of the best they heard, i guess they dont see thru the propaganda and bullshit and fall for bush' use of big words and that stupid expression he has on his face after every sentence. well i draw my land in the sand i guess im the enemy now.

[Chancho]

Bush doesn't write his own speeches! So those words are no throw away lines. They would have had to pass through G*d knows how many chiefs of staff, military and legal advisors etc etc. The implications would have been appreciated by those people - if not by Baby Bush.

As for Blair - I guess I need to reeducate myself as to where his loyalties really lie - I thought he was ok but after hearing his zealous defence of Bush's line, obviously he's just as fascist.

[Chancho]

Here's the speech in full, for those who'd like to analyse it...


This is the full text of George Bush's address to a joint jession of Congress and the American people

Friday September 21, 2001

Mr Speaker, Mr President Pro Tempore, members of Congress, and fellow Americans:
In the normal course of events, Presidents come to this chamber to report on the state of the Union. Tonight, no such report is needed. It has already been delivered by the American people.

We have seen it in the courage of passengers, who rushed terrorists to save others on the ground - passengers like an exceptional man named Todd Beamer. And would you please help me to welcome his wife, Lisa Beamer, here tonight.

We have seen the state of our Union in the endurance of rescuers, working past exhaustion. We have seen the unfurling of flags, the lighting of candles, the giving of blood, the saying of prayers - in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. We have seen the decency of a loving and giving people who have made the grief of strangers their own.

My fellow citizens, for the last nine days, the entire world has seen for itself the state of our Union - and it is strong.

Tonight we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger, and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.

I thank the Congress for its leadership at such an important time. All of America was touched on the evening of the tragedy to see Republicans and Democrats joined together on the steps of this Capitol, singing "God Bless America." And you did more than sing; you acted, by delivering $40 billion to rebuild our communities and meet the needs of our military.

Speaker Hastert, Minority Leader Gephardt, Majority Leader Daschle and Senator Lott, I thank you for your friendship, for your leadership and for your service to our country.

And on behalf of the American people, I thank the world for its outpouring of support. America will never forget the sounds of our National Anthem playing at Buckingham Palace, on the streets of Paris, and at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate.

We will not forget South Korean children gathering to pray outside our embassy in Seoul, or the prayers of sympathy offered at a mosque in Cairo. We will not forget moments of silence and days of mourning in Australia and Africa and Latin America.

Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than 250 citizens of India; men and women from El Salvador, Iran, Mexico and Japan; and hundreds of British citizens. America has no truer friend than Great Britain. Once again, we are joined together in a great cause - so honored the British Prime Minister has crossed an ocean to show his unity of purpose with America. Thank you for coming, friend.

On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars - but for the past 136 years, they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war - but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks - but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day - and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.

Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.

Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world - and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics - a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.

This group and its leader - a person named Osama bin Laden - are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction.

The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world.

Afghanistan's people have been brutalized - many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.

The United States respects the people of Afghanistan - after all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid - but we condemn the Taliban regime. It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists. By aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.

And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating.

These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.

I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.

Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.

Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber - a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms - our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.

They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.

These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.

We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions - by abandoning every value except the will to power - they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies.

Americans are asking: How will we fight and win this war? We will direct every resource at our command - every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war - to the disruption and to the defeat of the global terror network.

This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Our nation has been put on notice: We are not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans. Today, dozens of federal departments and agencies, as well as state and local governments, have responsibilities affecting homeland security. These efforts must be coordinated at the highest level. So tonight I announce the creation of a Cabinet-level position reporting directly to me - the Office of Homeland Security.

And tonight I also announce a distinguished American to lead this effort, to strengthen American security: a military veteran, an effective governor, a true patriot, a trusted friend - Pennsylvania's Tom Ridge. He will lead, oversee and coordinate a comprehensive national strategy to safeguard our country against terrorism, and respond to any attacks that may come.

These measures are essential. But the only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows.

Many will be involved in this effort, from FBI agents to intelligence operatives to the reservists we have called to active duty. All deserve our thanks, and all have our prayers. And tonight, a few miles from the damaged Pentagon, I have a message for our military: Be ready. I've called the Armed Forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud.

This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom.

We ask every nation to join us. We will ask, and we will need, the help of police forces, intelligence services, and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded - with sympathy and with support. Nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world. Perhaps the NATO Charter reflects best the attitude of the world: An attack on one is an attack on all.

The civilized world is rallying to America's side. They understand that if this terror goes unpunished, their own cities, their own citizens may be next. Terror, unanswered, can not only bring down buildings, it can threaten the stability of legitimate governments. And you know what - we're not going to allow it.

Americans are asking: What is expected of us? I ask you to live your lives, and hug your children. I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat.

I ask you to uphold the values of America, and remember why so many have come here. We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith.

I ask you to continue to support the victims of this tragedy with your contributions. Those who want to give can go to a central source of information, libertyunites.org, to find the names of groups providing direct help in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it.

I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle.

I ask your continued participation and confidence in the American economy. Terrorists attacked a symbol of American prosperity. They did not touch its source. America is successful because of the hard work, and creativity, and enterprise of our people. These were the true strengths of our economy before September 11th, and they are our strengths today.

And, finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform, and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow, and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead.

Tonight I thank my fellow Americans for what you have already done and for what you will do. And ladies and gentlemen of the Congress, I thank you, their representatives, for what you have already done and for what we will do together.

Tonight, we face new and sudden national challenges. We will come together to improve air safety, to dramatically expand the number of air marshals on domestic flights, and take new measures to prevent hijacking. We will come together to promote stability and keep our airlines flying, with direct assistance during this emergency.

We will come together to give law enforcement the additional tools it needs to track down terror here at home. We will come together to strengthen our intelligence capabilities to know the plans of terrorists before they act, and find them before they strike.

We will come together to take active steps that strengthen America's economy, and put our people back to work.

Tonight we welcome two leaders who embody the extraordinary spirit of all New Yorkers: Governor George Pataki, and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. As a symbol of America's resolve, my administration will work with Congress, and these two leaders, to show the world that we will rebuild New York City.

After all that has just passed - all the lives taken, and all the possibilities and hopes that died with them - it is natural to wonder if America's future is one of fear. Some speak of an age of terror. I know there are struggles ahead, and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror; this will be an age of liberty, here and across the world.

Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom - the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time - now depends on us. Our nation - this generation - will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail.

It is my hope that in the months and years ahead, life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day, and to whom it happened. We'll remember the moment the news came - where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire, or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever.

And I will carry this: It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. This is my reminder of lives that ended, and a task that does not end.

I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.

Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice - assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America.

Thank you.

[cubist]

ur this sums my opinions

">
> Hi everyone, fat mike here. We've been getting a
> few emails asking us to remove our "not my
> president" shirts from the fat catalog. Some think
> the shirts may be in bad taste due to the current
> situation. Well, I must say,"o contrare mon frere".
> We're not selling anti-american shirts. We sell
> anti-Bush shirts. Yeah terrorism sucks, but Bush is
> still a fuckin idiot, and he didn't get elected by
> the vote of the american people. He's the stupidest
> president of all time, and while I generally support
> the US government, democracy, and fellow caring
> citizens in this country, I will not ever support
> that asshole. Please excuse my french and sorry if
> those shirts offend, but I'm not about to change my
> political views because some maniacal religious
> freaks attacked the US." Fat Mike NOFX and FAT WRECK.


fighting for peace is like fuckling for your virginity