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Actually if I lived in the DC Baltimore or NYC areas I might think about going. It might actually work out for radicals if we took a modest shot at talking to people there. Sure Jon Stewart and Colbert (although funny - particularly the Colbert IMO) are not radicals, but when do any protests in the US ever have radical politics coming from the front of the stage. We wouldn't be there to convince TV personalities, but on the other hand I think a lot of the people showing up are going to be doing so because they are sick of the right-wing. Most likely, their view of "moderation" would be the liberal agenda they thought Obama would push. I don't have cable anymore so I haven't seen Stewart's promotion of the event - if he criticizes code-pink and compares them to tea-partiers, I wouldn't be surprised - but that's his liberal politics blinding him... no one in his audience would go to a mock protest to mock code-pink... they are going to mock the far-right.
So if a few radicals showed up and set up some booths or something and talked to people... sure we might get some frat-boy-like hecklers who just came for a free comedy show, but I'm sure arguments about how moderation isn't really an option when the ruling class is trying to kill people overseas and drive down living standards at home. What's the moderate take on wage-cuts, the moderate take on being pro-war, the moderate take on austerity, the moderate destruction of people's lives? We're only going to stick half of a knife in your back - that's moderation!
Regulating capitalism is like going into a bar full of rednecks and preaching to them that not only is
drinking bad, but country music is bad as well... how far do you think you can get with that speech,
without smelling someone's knuckles?
money is to politics as fertilizer is to garden weeds.
I know right. Especially when it's those same rednecks that have been buying you drinks all night!!!Regulating capitalism is like going into a bar full of rednecks and preaching to them that not only is
drinking bad, but country music is bad as well... how far do you think you can get with that speech,
without smelling someone's knuckles?
AKA El Vagoneta
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http://rananets.blogspot.com/ <---Radical News Aggregator beta
Oh, yes... I had forgotten about lobbyists!!!I know right. Especially when it's those same rednecks that have been buying you drinks all night!!!
money is to politics as fertilizer is to garden weeds.
The thing is, since I haven't heard him actually critique Communism,
I feel as I do about almost any human being: It's possible to educate.
I haven't watched Jon as long as you, Only since early 2004.
But pretty much constantly since. And I'm sorry if I suggested I'd stop
watching Jon if I came to the 'revelation' that he's Anti-Communist.
He's funny regardless and I can watch it for free.
You're right that he never suggested towards outright Communism...
It's not hard to see the fallacy in democracy is capital, correct?
He talks about that too. What is the actual problem with Communism?
The only real issue for the movement has been apathy and a utter
mass ignorance that has been passed on to the newest generation.
He's been doing this for a long number of years now.
Perhaps after nothing happens at the Rally to Restore Sanity
he'll have more of an issue with pacifist reform. Or not.
Lol, he's a comedian, I sound crazy.
I also think Jon Stewart's audience is slightly more left,
perhaps just a bit, then he is. I'd hope they'd rise up but would worry
that they'd never actually look for themselves out of curiousness
for an actual answer to the problems Stewart constantly addresses.
Ultimately, I bet he votes Democrat every fucking time.
I think I'm going to write him a letter...
Political Compass: Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -10.00
"Our aims are full communism with “lulz” as a transitional demand."
-DSG
Point to note
Whilst not from the states, I was curious about the left and rev left presence around the march.
In reading some of the above comments, and obviously agree that this is no communist march, I think the utlra leftism is somewhat absurd.
When was the last time any of us, as revolutionaries, went to a revolutionary communist rally. Getting wasted with 5 comrades in the backyard doesn't count.
Since the election of Obama and the huge popular disillusionment, the only air play of any 'popular' current (from my distant perspective at least) is the proto-fascist tea party and other racist movements[no mosque at ground zero; quran burners etc].
There is no doubt that his rally is a liberal rally. But it seems to be to be achieve 2 objectives. Firstly, if it is large enough, it should place into perspective the actual relative strength and size of the tea-party movement - which I think is intentionally overstated by the bourgeois press; this is a good thing. I know it is not anywhere near revolutionary, but HELLO! in the US what little there is of class conscious revolutionary groups or individuals are a world away from the class or revolution. Indeed the hegemonic order is a key barrier.
Secondly, we can not dismiss the desire amongst the established centre-left to try and given the democrats a 'grass-roots' bounce for the mid-terms because of there much predicted betrayal of promises of peace, economic and social reform.
I can understand why revolutionaries want no part in the latter. But the former is critical. The left, again from my distant perspective, has largely allowed the far-right, without real challenge, to present a fake popular movement as having the solution to social crisis whilst directly attacking the notion of socialism/communism - indeed conflating Obama with it!
One of the few times I have witnessed any direct publicised confrontation was the "dude, you have no quran" hippy becoming a cult liberal hero.
I am not advocating revolutionary support for the rally. If I was there, I'd check it out to help me gauge the nature of current consciousness. But to say its just shit, not left enough, not insane enough or whatever totally lacks any realistic assessment of the challenges facing revolutionaries in the states, nor does it take seriously the task of engaging with the working class at the current level of consciousness and developing ways to understand how to develop a renewed and serious social movement led by communists.
Jon Stewart didn't write the book, the Daily Show writers did. If you read carefully there's sort of a weird admixture of different political positions. There's some pretty intense left-liberalism, there's also some vulgar bourgeois bigotry - anti-working class, racist etc. (it's sort of a minor point, but flip to "education" and think for a sec about what they're saying about basketball scholarships, and the jungle monkeys who get them).
As for the politics of the rally, one of the student unions in town is offering cheap tickets for a hotel and a ride down, I would've liked to go but I think I would've had a real hard time with the political substance of it. As has already been said, it's a really dangerous sort of anti-politics - that the problems with American society come down to people who have political views, or people who are angry. It's really easy not to have strong feelings about politics (other than ordinary liberal state management, defined as non-political) when you're a yuppie in a fucking Manhattan condo, but other than that most people in America and everywhere else are pissed because they're getting assfucked. I don't think we need irrationality or insanity either, but I think what we do need is people doing shit that is going to be described that way from the people who lose when the working class is politically active.
Really I feel like the message of the rally is one coming from well-educated white liberals that what suffering working class people need to do to solve their country's problems is stop being so angry.
First off, most communist/socialist/anarchists work by engaging issues usually at the local level. There's not a lot of official party building rallies, which usually happens behind the scenes or in less publicized occasions. But if you really must know, soon the ISO is holding a Marxism day school in my town, and I'll probably go. Plus I've been to regional conferences, and many many people on this board have attended national conferences by the ISO, PSL, and there was the US Social Conference recently, but I'm not sure who put that one together. I think it was like a coalition thing. In any case, consider this assumption you have about the left thoroughly annihilated.
This is because you're out of the loop. Did you hear about any of the Alto Arizona rallies. The musician's boycott of the same law (1070). Indeed, if anything is going to save the left in the U.S. it is identity politics, because that's the only thing people seem to understand. (And I'll probably draw a lot of heat from that comment). Also, for the past few years, May 1st has been an occasion to rally around immigrant rights. Nationwide, I'd say participation usually approximates about 1 million. In my city alone, it draws in about 1,000 people annually. Not too high, but nothing to make light of either.
And you totally lose me here. Who said it was not insane enough! In fact, I think what people are arguing is that reformism of the type implied by the rally is the insanity, and radical politics is the only truly sane answer to that.
I really don't understand your motivation for making that comment. I'm going to chalk it up to a misunderstanding of the arguments made. I don't think you intentionally meant to raise that strawman, just try to pick your words a little better next time. Thanks.
AKA El Vagoneta
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http://rananets.blogspot.com/ <---Radical News Aggregator beta
I'm enthused by some of the thingss you talk about El Vagoneta, and in a sense my message is somewhat provocative or even 'strawman building', because I want to be informed otherwise. So thank you for the information.
In terms of the comment regarding insanity - it was directly related to comments made in the first page of this thread like:
I do not doubt that there are revolutionaries working hard in the USA, and even here where I live in Australia. I am one! But here we are plagued by many of the same things you guys are. That is, revolutionary organisations that are offering no new analysis, have limited understanding of the current nature of class consciousness, are isolated and and atomised and for the most part limited to carrying on with the same cycle of ineffective 'activism' which by its nature only touches a limited circle of people. This is not a personalised criticism of anyone. It is something that requires a collective response and active re-engagement with our very politics and their application to the current conditions.
I did make a caricature of the left in my original post, and I think that was problematic. But I do hold firm in the belief that over there, like here, it cannot be said that the left is in any ascendancy and this is a problem, that in my experience at least, the traditional revolutionary organisations don't know how to solve.
In the end, I simply thought that whilst the politics of the Stewart rally are not radical, they do reflect a counter weight to the far-rights seeming ascendancy. So the crticisms in the earliest posts of the limitations of reformism - which obviously I share, are not actually engaging with the context within which the rally is being held.
I appreciate the revolutionary civility in your post.
I agree with you that this is a big problem among left groups, especially in the U.S. The problem is that it does not seem to be in the interests of many groups to attempt a re-evaluation. They like "marching" on both knees and groveling before the ruling classes over and over again because it gets them some moderate news coverage and, in the case of such "national" events, a few hours on C-SPAN. It also gets them a stream of new members that can maintain their "revolving-door" membership.
I really don't think there was much of a caricature made on your part. The problem is that much of the left is, in fact, little more than a caricature. Moreover, I think you nailed it on the head when you said:
The reason the left hasn't done anything about the "Tea Party" Nativists is because it can't find agreement on any part of it. The left view on the "Tea Party" effectively ranges from "ho-hum" to "oh shit!", with a lot of shades in between, and no clear divide among trends. A lot of the larger left groups -- the ones with the money to organize an event -- don't really see them as a big deal, and therefore won't lift a finger; those who do see the Nativists as a threat are either too small to do anything, too cash-poor to do it properly by ourselves (that's us), or too lazy to care. This divide is why the "Tea Party" has been able to set the terms of the political fight at this time. We are again seeing the failure of the left as a whole to intervene in the political (class) struggle. And this has allowed "moderates" like Stewart to step into the void.
I think Stewart's rally is worse than reformist. It's a call to "moderation" -- to "being nice" and "acting civil", which are often used when there are concerns about working people radicalizing and getting "unruly". What's worse, the implications of such advice, especially in the face of what I would agree with you is a fascistic and radically reactionary movement, is a recipe for catastrophe. The "center-left" in Europe took this line in the face of fascism in the 1920s, and look what it got us. That's why I agree with El Vagoneta's comment that "the rally is the insanity". Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result each time. That's exactly what Stewart's vanity rally is about.
This is a Rally to Restore Insanity -- to preserve apathy, deepen the poverty of serious thought and bolster pragmatism in the body politic.
Thanks for the comments and insight Miles.
I am glad that at least some of what I recognise from afar is shared by some local comrades.
Much of what you state regarding the nature of left organisations reflects an ongoing conversation I am having with a comrade at work. (indeed it feels like the same conversation I have been having with anyone who would listen for the last 5+ years) about the bankruptcy of the organised left in Australia.
He is a member of an established post-trotskyist group who along with other smaller trotskyist grouplets engage in the cycle I outlined above. He is getting very little joy trying to raise the matter in his organisation.
I share your assessment of the groups not being interested in any reevaluation. I think you allude to the fact that any reassessment, if carried out in an authentic way, would challenge the very existence of many of these organisations...a risk they and some of their full-time paid leaders are unwilling to contemplate, and nor the party warriors.
Perhaps, it is worth starting a thread in the politics section of the forum.
I accept your final comments regarding the political bankruptcy of the Stewart rally.
Yeah, I'm sure if I had a national platform 4 nights a week, could have politicians begging to be on my show, I would not see the importance of protesting either.
If someone does go to the rally, here's a good sign slogan in my opinion.
Or something along those lines... maybe worded better.
Edit: "Hey Stewart: For those of us who don't host a national TV show, protesting is the only way to be heard."
Last edited by Jimmie Higgins; 29th October 2010 at 22:12.
just from watching his stupid show before i lost TV due to the degradations of stupid capitalism, i learned the following. jon stewart supported the imperialist attack against yugoslavia. jon stewart supports the repression of palestinian civilians by israeli expansionists. jon stewart scabbed on the hollywood screenwriters' strike. in conclusion, fuck jon stewart! colbert is a humorous troll, nothing more (he scabbed on the writers too)!
Damn right, although at least Colbert sometimes does do good things, such as speaking in a congressional hearing about the plight of migrant workers. I don't think Stewart has ever done something like that.
YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS
Oct 30 11 AM Franklin (13th and I): Million Molotov March
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
So is this a big publicity stunt or what- I haven't actually paid it much attention- does it deserve attention- what is going to happen- is there actually a bloc- is it a fake bloc- are 30 people going to be in the bloc and is it going to flop miserably-
WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON- IVE WAITED TILL THE LAST MINUTE AGAIN- and i have no time- no, i don't have enough interest yet-
Is there a site giving a rundown of events as they happen- photos- video etc.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
A Guardian story about it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...elections-2010
Really the only good part of the article was this:
Hells yeahb!
They're attempting to depoliticize politics and make it about entertainment. At this rate the right won't even need to liquidate anybody when they come to power.
But now we must pick up every piece
Of the life we used to love
Just to keep ourselves
At least enough to carry on
In the end, I would call the Stewart/Colbert rally a failure. Their best estimate is 200,000 people. That is, out of the millions who watch these two and fap to their satire porn, they couldn't even get out 1/10th of them. I found myself comparing this to the first major antiwar protest in the U.S. after 9/11, in April 2002. We had 250,000 at that event, and the atmosphere for such protests was much more chilled ... and gagged. The only way anyone could call it a success is because it had no goal, no statement to make, and with such a low bar all you really needed was a collection of unthinking semi-warm bodies.
I would hope that, at some point in the near future, Stewart and Colbert realize what they've done. But I doubt that will ever happen. They still have their money and TV shows, and don't really give a shit about anyone else.
