Wearing colors to "fight" things

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I own tons of purple shirts and jackets. If I wear it on the particular day is up to what I'm feeling that day. I'm my woman will make me.

tl;dr purple rules.

[Jack]

At least these are creative.

[Invincible Summer]

If I was complaining about sexism or racism, I bet you would not have accused me for being "sensitive". So much for your double standards.

No, I think such a campaign would be equally pointless.

Even if it were "promote communism by wearing red" I'd think it was something really fucking stupid.

The "general sense" that homophobia is wrong isn't as widespread as you think. Otherwise how would you explain the frequent suicides committed by queer youths? Or are you just going to join in with the right-wing press and accuse these people for being "weak-willed" or something, like how the right-wing press in China blamed the workers who committed suicide at Foxconn due to immense exploitation and oppression for being "weak-willed"?

You sound like people killing themselves due to homophobia isn't a big deal.

Sort of.


Let me explain.

I know that I will never understand what it's like to be a non-heteronormative individual in a society that isn't 100% welcoming to such people. I won't ever fully understand the struggle. At the same time though, I think that painting the oppression of a depressed queer youth as somehow "worse" than the oppression of a... say depressed heteronormative youth is problematic. Who is to say that just because the queer youth happens to be of a more oppressed social group, they are objectively "worse off" mentally?

Say a white, working class queer youth commits suicide in Kentucky. A Middle-eastern, working-class, heteronormative youth commits suicide in London. Both for reasons of feeling unwanted in society. Why is it that the queer youth's suicide is "worse" and more of a big deal?

I'm not trying to say that homophobia is dead or that it's an unworthy cause. What I am saying is that these value-judgments are arbitrary and subjective, and valuing one over another is just a matter of perspective. Iseul, you are clearly concerned about LGBT activism which is why you react very strongly to this issue. Someone who is more vocal about racism might feel differently.

I'm also on a bit of a misanthropic bend lately, so I may come off as more insensitive to the plight of others.

I never said I agree with the specific format and style in which such campaigns are waged. But unless you can offer an alternative approach, it seems you are just writing off anti-homophobia campaigns altogether. We don't just need such campaigns now, we need it constantly, and although sensationalist campaigns in this format aren't at all ideal, they are still better than nothing, unless you can suggest an even better alternative.

I would say that, in regards to their efficacy, they are almost not better than nothing.

A strong education campaign in schools would be much more effective. I'm not writing off anti-homophobia campaigns altogether... in fact I said that the battle against homophobia needs to be constant. I just think they need to be much stronger and much more effective than some shitty t-shirt campaign that people will forget about in a month.

What you are proposing here is like a queer politics version of impossibilism: since worker's strikes within the capitalist framework are always going to be limited and reformist, revolutionary socialists should never support them. BS.

I wouldn't be against other, more effective campaigns (I quite like this one for example, as its in-your-face nature will surely make it viral and generate lots of views/debate/etc), but the ones I'm complaining about in particular aren't even reformist. They're pointless.

Your attempt to divide the LGBT community will not work. Our fate is objectively linked together.

I'm not trying to divide anyone. I'm asking an honest question: will people who support "wearing purple" or whatever take kindly to intersex individuals?

Everyone worries about 'gay rights' and whatnot, but there are more than just "funny gay guys that have good fashion sense" or "strong/sexy lesbian women" (as the mainstream, heteronormative stereotypes go) within the LGBT community that I'm not sure that these campaigns bring up.

And funny, one could argue that identity politics in general divides society and humanity, as our fate is objectively linked together.

Are you aware that this "event" is due to the prominent stories about teens who commit suicide due to harassment about their sexuality?

(I don't even own a purple shirt)

Yes, I am. That doesn't change how pointless it is. I'm sorry if I've offended any people who think that wearing a certain color will change how homophobia is viewed.

[Queercommie Girl]

I know that I will never understand what it's like to be a non-heteronormative individual in a society that isn't 100% welcoming to such people.

It's not just "not 100% welcoming", it's pretty unwelcoming. Most queer people have faced discrimination at one time or another during their lives.

At the same time though, I think that painting the oppression of a depressed queer youth as somehow "worse" than the oppression of a... say depressed heteronormative youth is problematic. Who is to say that just because the queer youth happens to be of a more oppressed social group, they are objectively "worse off" mentally?

It's not "worse" in an individualistic sense. It's worse in a statistical sense because suicide rates are significantly higher for LGBT people than non-LGBT people.

Say a white, working class queer youth commits suicide in Kentucky. A Middle-eastern, working-class, heteronormative youth commits suicide in London. Both for reasons of feeling unwanted in society. Why is it that the queer youth's suicide is "worse" and more of a big deal?

As I said, you are missing the point. Queer suicides need to be highlighted more because suicide rates for queer people are higher, it's "affirmative action", more consideration for the disadvantaged.

Probably more people commit suicide due to racism as well, but in this particular issue I doubt the rate would be as high as for LGBT people.

I'm not trying to say that homophobia is dead or that it's an unworthy cause. What I am saying is that these value-judgments are arbitrary and subjective, and valuing one over another is just a matter of perspective. Iseul, you are clearly concerned about LGBT activism which is why you react very strongly to this issue. Someone who is more vocal about racism might feel differently.

Actually you don't know me at all, so don't try to pin "value judgements" on me. I'm very vocal about racism too since I am an ethnic minority myself. But as far as this particular issue is concerned, queer suicides is a more pressing concern than ethnic minority suicides. It doesn't mean queer issues are intrinsically more important than ethnic minority issues ("oppression olympics" always suck), just that in this particular area queer issues stand out more, that's just an objective fact, not some kind of subjective value-judgement.

I'm also on a bit of a misanthropic bend lately, so I may come off as more insensitive to the plight of others.

I don't accept your apology.

I would say that, in regards to their efficacy, they are almost not better than nothing.

They are still better than nothing. At least in terms of making some people aware that this issue even exists in the first place.

Any kind of progressive or socialist movement is better than absolutely nothing, that's a fundamental principle of transitional strategies and entryism. Because no matter how lame it is, at least it gives something for people to work with, rather than nothing.

A strong education campaign in schools would be much more effective. I'm not writing off anti-homophobia campaigns altogether... in fact I said that the battle against homophobia needs to be constant. I just think they need to be much stronger and much more effective than some shitty t-shirt campaign that people will forget about in a month.

I don't disagree, but what's better, just stand on the sidelines and write off these campaigns altogether, or actually join them and try to convince them to build a better and more effective campaign?

Do you understand the principles of entryism and transitional strategies?

I wouldn't be against other, more effective campaigns (I quite like this one for example, as its in-your-face nature will surely make it viral and generate lots of views/debate/etc), but the ones I'm complaining about in particular aren't even reformist. They're pointless.

Even "pointless campaigns" are better than no campaign at all, not because the campaign itself is of any use, but simply that it provides an opportunity for people to move the campaign in a more radical and productive direction. With no campaigns at all even the "opportunity" doesn't exist.

I'm not trying to divide anyone. I'm asking an honest question: will people who support "wearing purple" or whatever take kindly to intersex individuals?

Any reason why they won't? Intersex is still a far less common phenomenon than homosexuality and transgenderism.

Also, it's interesting you only mentioned intersex people rather than trans people. Why is that? Do you feel trans people don't deserve equal rights as much as intersex people do?

Everyone worries about 'gay rights' and whatnot, but there are more than just "funny gay guys that have good fashion sense" or "strong/sexy lesbian women" (as the mainstream, heteronormative stereotypes go) within the LGBT community that I'm not sure that these campaigns bring up.

I'm not saying these campaigns are effective, only that they provide an opportunity for people to raise more awareness and perhaps try to stir the campaign in a more radical and productive direction, as I have said.

Suppose there is a racist worker's strike that is anti-immigrant. Sure, that movement is not effective either by any means, but does that mean socialists should just stand on the sidelines and not participate in the strike in an entryist manner and try to correct the workers' reactionary ideas? I really don't think so.

And funny, one could argue that identity politics in general divides society and humanity, as our fate is objectively linked together.

I don't know what you mean by "identity politics". If you mean it in the sense that "people shouldn't emphasise their identity in the face of discrimination" then you are parading around a reactionary stance.

The so-called "unity of the working class" can never be achieved through a mechanical or artificial process, or through some directives imposed from above. It can only emerge organically. Divisions among the working class do exist, but it is totally counter-productive to try to erase it away through "anti-identity politics" campaigns that essentially forces every worker into the same "white heterosexual cis-gendered male" mode. Real divisions reflect real objective issues, and divisions won't disappear until these issues are dealt with effectively.

Yes, I am. That doesn't change how pointless it is. I'm sorry if I've offended any people who think that wearing a certain color will change how homophobia is viewed.

You are an idiot who doesn't seem to be able to understand what other people say.

No-one in this thread is saying these particular campaigns have much of a point or is really effective in anyway. But we don't just completely write-off a campaign if it's not effective, not when it presents us with an opportunity to apply entryism and transitional strategies, which apparently is something your mind cannot hope to grasp, because perhaps when engaging with the masses, you either impose your views in a bureaucratic top-down manner, or you ignore the masses altogether, without understanding the need to integrate with the masses.

As for "wearing a certain colour", are you aware of the context of this campaign at all? It's designed mainly for kids, not adults. And as I said if a "socialist vanguard" is not willing to genuinely go to the level of the masses and truly integrate with the masses, then this "vanguard" is worse than worthless. Have you even considered what the gay youths themselves think about this campaign? I don't know what they think, but hypothetically if they actually think this campaign is good, then you would be in the wrong. You can't impose your "vanguardist views" onto the masses in the top-down manner.

For someone who claims to be a Maoist to some extent or influenced significantly by Maoism, you seem to be pretty ignorant about how to apply the Maoist doctrines of "mass-line" and "integration with the masses". You seem to either just impose your views from above or totally stand on the sidelines if the campaign or movement or whatever does not strike your personal fancy.

It's not about what you like or what you think, it's about about the masses like and what the masses think, you dolt.

[Crux]

On a slightly lighter note:

+ YouTube Video

[Invincible Summer]

lots of text

This thread was meant to specifically address this campaign and other similar attempts at "changing" society through silly means. I wrote it as a way to vent my displeasure at what I view as pointless tactics. I didn't intend it to be a serious critique of anything, and it was somewhat lighthearted in that I wouldn't really pursue my "anti T Shirt Wearing campaign" further, or publicly denounce such campaigns, just a mindless ramble about the topic. If I was serious about criticizing/organizing a counter-campaign/some other bullshit, I wouldn't have put an incoherent rant in CHIT CHAT.

I think it's pretty clear that I wrote this thread in order to vent my feelings. So it isabout how I feel. I know it doesn't change anything in the long run, nor does it aid progress, but who fucking cares? Not every single fucking aspect of one's life has to be the "correct line."

Now you're turning it into some "prolier than thou" politically-correct crusade, trying to weed out "reactionaries."

I'm done.

+ YouTube Video

[Queercommie Girl]

This thread was meant to specifically address this campaign and other similar attempts at "changing" society through silly means. I wrote it as a way to vent my displeasure at what I view as pointless tactics. I didn't intend it to be a serious critique of anything, and it was somewhat lighthearted in that I wouldn't really pursue my "anti T Shirt Wearing campaign" further, or publicly denounce such campaigns, just a mindless ramble about the topic. If I was serious about criticizing/organizing a counter-campaign/some other bullshit, I wouldn't have put an incoherent rant in CHIT CHAT.

I think it's pretty clear that I wrote this thread in order to vent my feelings. So it isabout how I feel. I know it doesn't change anything in the long run, nor does it aid progress, but who fucking cares? Not every single fucking aspect of one's life has to be the "correct line."

Now you're turning it into some "prolier than thou" politically-correct crusade, trying to weed out "reactionaries."

I'm done.

+ YouTube Video

It's not your specific attitude towards this particular campaign that really matters, but your attitude towards queer politics in general.

If your "venting of your feelings" also happen to indirectly disrespect the queer community, then you can expect others to respond to that.

Let's face it, you don't really consider queer politics to be intrinsically important do you? Certainly not on the same level as racism or sexism? The very fact that you would explicitly mention an "anti-homophobia" campaign as an example to illustrate the "silly use of colours in fights to change society" but not an "anti-racism/anti-sexism" campaign is quite indicative of this.

I mean why don't you actually criticise wearing the colour pink on "breast cancer awareness day" for women as well? By your logic here that is also very pointless tactic. Why is that any different? Just because it involves women?

[Jazzratt]

Thread moved to discrimination, partially in light of the seriousness of the discussion that has arisen and the sensitivity of the subjects discussed. There's obviously some chit-chat toss in here already but I, frankly, can't be arsed picking it out but it should go without saying that any chit-chattery that goes on now will be dealt with accordingly.

Have fun

[Takanago]

I know some people back in my small, conservative hometown who have some strong feelings about the "Wear Purple to Fight Homophobia" event. For some people an awareness event like that might seem like it's doing nothing, but we have to remember that there are still places where LGBT discrimination is a big problem in people's lives.

I've heard that in my former high school, the principal there still tries to marginalize LGBT awareness events and that the Gay-Straight Alliance effectively meets in secret.

Even today, there are many young people who still like they're suffering alone, and feel terrible. These awareness events here to help them.

[timbaly]

I know some people back in my small, conservative hometown who have some strong feelings about the "Wear Purple to Fight Homophobia" event. For some people an awareness event like that might seem like it's doing nothing, but we have to remember that there are still places where LGBT discrimination is a big problem in people's lives.

I've heard that in my former high school, the principal there still tries to marginalize LGBT awareness events and that the Gay-Straight Alliance effectively meets in secret.

Even today, there are many young people who still like they're suffering alone, and feel terrible. These awareness events here to help them.

I think you got some great points there. I plan on wearing purple this Wednesday. I figure "why not?" it doesn't hurt me to do it and it may get some people thinking. Some people might end up looking into the issues more if they see many people wearing purple. I would never use my time to organize such an event but I don't mind participation.

[LC89]

I'm totally agree with you. Wearing certain things doesn't has a impact on a issue. People feel like to do something but too lazy to get off from their ass to fight so I found this method to feed their ego a bit.

[gorillafuck]

I'm totally agree with you. Wearing certain things doesn't has a impact on a issue. People feel like to do something but too lazy to get off from their ass to fight so I found this method to feed their ego a bit.

Or it can show queers that there's a community to support them. Which is the purpose of it.

[Meridian]

At least these are creative.

Should make ones that say "I love testicles" too.

[Jazzhands]

It's completely useless. Che didn't lead the Cuban Revolution by wearing a shirt with his face on it. It's all talk and no action. It's armchair activism at its worst.

Or it can show queers that there's a community to support them. Which is the purpose of it.

This is the only possible circumstance where wearing shit would actually help a cause.

[Widerstand]

It's completely useless. Che didn't lead the Cuban Revolution by wearing a shirt with his face on it.

lol. The pure thought of someone having their own face on a shirt.

[gorillafuck]

It's completely useless. Che didn't lead the Cuban Revolution by wearing a shirt with his face on it. It's all talk and no action. It's armchair activism at its worst.

And you contradict yourself right in the very same post....

This is the only possible circumstance where wearing shit would actually help a cause.

That is what the wear purple day was for.

[Amphictyonis]

So I'm not sure if some of you have heard of Oct 20th being the day to "wear purple to fight homophobia" and there is/was also "wear black to combat bullying."


Obviously I'm not a fan of homophobia or bullying. But fucking seriously... how is wearing a color going to "fight" anything? I wear black on a regular basis, does that mean I'm a crusader for anti-bullying? Fuck no.

So what, if someone is caught bullying or being homophobia, are all the black-shirts or purple-shirts going to suddenly have this simultaneous psychic mind-surge and join together to form a giant robot to fight the bigot?


Also, the whole "it Gets Better" campaign. It's a laudable cause, but basically tells ppl to suck it up and grow some balls, in a more compassionate way. But again, just like the Colored Shirt things, it doesn't address the root of the problem. Instead of creating a huge campaign to target the root issue of homophobia, these ppl take the spineless liberal stance of dancing around it and preaching to the choir.

I sometimes think that for issues like this, it's almost better to have groups like Bash back! (except in larger numbers) because then any homophobe who thinks of gay-bashing someone will have to think twice if they want to get the shit beat out of them, as opposed to being very slowly prodded by "anti-hate" laws.


/rant

It's a sure fire way to tell if any foreign movements are sponsored by the USA. Such as the "Green Revolution" in Iran.

[Sosa]

Or it can show queers that there's a community to support them. Which is the purpose of it.

Yes, this is why I would wear it.