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Religion in a communist society
Many people seem to feel that, in a communist society, religious fervor would be greatly decreased, possibly to the point where all vestiges of religion vanished.
However, I've also heard a few people assert that, in a communist society, organized religion would actually be forbidden.
Can I get some input on this?
He who has a why to live can bear almost any how.
-Nietzsche
I think people who claim religion will be forbidden are reactionary to an extant, or - more liekly - they haven't though it through and considered that - more likely then not - most of there family (and society) is going to be repressed by this.
A lot of good working class commies happen to be theists, we can't just say "sod off" and be done with it.
Capitalism won't be completely eradicated through a revolution it will take education to beat it, the same will be true with religion. Hopefully it will lose all significance although I'm sure some people will still believe in a sense of spirituality. I agree that an outright ban would be oppressive but religion in its current form is an oppressive system so should be stopped and measures to cripple it should be made i.e. the re-appropriation of the churches wealth and property. I think for any religion to exist in a stateless society it would have to radically adapt.
Some of the Christian communists or communists who are Christians that I've spoken to have some very misguided views on homosexuality.
Since religion has material foundations, it can't be defeated through bans. For the same reason, it also can't be defeated through only education/propaganda. As Marx very poetically pointed out, 'Religion is only the illusory sun which revolves round man as long as he does not revolve round himself.' As a result, 'The demand to give up illusions about the existing state of affairs is the demand to give up a state of affairs which needs illusions', and to create a reality in which humanity revolves round itself.
I think organized religion, and superstition in general, will continue to decay into nonexistence, banned, communist, or not. It only survives through a minority and a majority of a nominal status who have obtained their status through child indoctrination. The lot of them are just as religious as holidays are holy. It's a completely disingenuous and corruptive situation. But I think you can not honestly be a theist and a communist, you can only cherry pick from both.
Just let religion wither away, jeez...
Religion, just like monarchy won't excist forever, enjoy it while you can.
Anarchism. Gift economy. Communism. Post-Scarcity. Resource Based Economies. Technocracy. Transhumanism. Singularitarianism. Equality. Liberation. No exploitation. Clean energy, etc.Anti-currency.
"a man with a soul of that beautiful white Christ which seems coming out of Russia." - Oscar Wilde on Peter Kropotkin.
I think that, at least with Anarchism, Religion has no place in a society like that. For one, religions, like it's already been noted, is oppressive and reactionary is many ways. For people to truly call themselves free, they have to be in the mindset that they are the one's who make up their minds, actions, etc. and not some invisible man in a robe with a great white beard who has a big ego trip. Anarchism is all about thinking for one's self, and religions are there to think for people, rather then letting the people think for themselves.
So in either an Anarchist or Communist Society, religion has no place where people are truly free.
"We are free, truly free, when we don't need to rent our arms to anybody in order to be able to lift a piece of bread to our mouths."
- Ricardo Flores Magón
"I am resolved to struggle against everything and everybody."
- Emiliano Zapata
Any revolution that has in its goal the banning of religion is far too reactionary for anyone here to support. Religion will be defeated through education, not force.
Marx was spanked by a bourgoeis nanny as a child.
If we're avoiding the "science vs. religion" debate for now, then I would think that organized religion would probably die out on its own, but personal beliefs would still remain. The rest is up to the individual (i.e. whether or not they will follow various beliefs or choose to let them go).
I think any religious people who are cool enough to support the revolution/revolutionary society will most likely not have reactionary bullshit spewing from their mouths anyway, so I don't see why there would be a need to ensure their secularization.
We've got your war!
We're at the gates!
We're at your door!
We've got the guillotine...
State atheism is a mistake, if atheism truly is the more logical philosophy then it must be openly debated against us theists. Denial of religious belief is surely reactionary as it asserts that the "enlightened" are supreme over those who do believe by some measure and that those below should be forced to accept the thought of the enlightened.
“How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?” Charles Bukowski, Factotum
"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." MLK
-fka Redbrother
Advanced communist societies would be non hierarchical. The church is one of the oldest and strongest hierarchy's known to man hence all of the treacherous activity born from that institution. Religion, if facilitated on a personal level without a church/leader/master/groupthink I would imagine would be fine. It's when your beliefs start effecting others is when it becomes a problem. Would the Westbro Baptist Church exist in a communist society? No.
+ YouTube Video
Would you want your fellow workers under direct democracy attending this church (below)?
+ YouTube Video
I can understand the desire to want to believe in some higher force or meaning in life. Some deep and meaningful reason we exist but the pious archaic dogma of the past needs to go. It's stunting man kinds progression.
In the context of modern capitalism, religion is partly an attempt to find coherence and meaning in a world where life is lived through a fragmented collection of commodities that exist separate from humanity and separate from each other. Creating communism implies reorganizing life around the human subject. From an existential perspective, you could say that proletarian revolution consists of people seizing the power to create their own meaning in life. So we're not going to ban religion; we're going to transcend it and dissolve the structures that necessitate shared illusion.
It would be hierarchical to ban religious people from assembling and praying. Reactionary churches are merely a symptom of a reactionary economic model. As the world progresses away from capital the people will look for progress. If the church does not give it to them, then it will collapse, however, if people assemble now with their more revolutionary views they will form more revolutionary churches. There is nothing wrong with people expressing their beliefs on issues that really aren't central to materialism and have no reason to be banned.
“How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?” Charles Bukowski, Factotum
"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." MLK
-fka Redbrother
In the absence of a state religious dogma, as in, the fundamentalist teachings of the old testament and koran, would be detrimental to a free society. It's not hierarchical to abolish hierarchical institutions. Organized religion is a huge problem. It's one step below capitalism.
I believe Soviet control over areas such as Azerbaidzhan & Afghanistan help show a small picture of what would initially happen to religion while under Communism, let alone Socialism. According to The Handbook of Major Soviet Nationalities, Islam simply withered away & also witnessed the gradual erosion of traditional Islamic life:
"Azerbaidzhan presents two cultural worlds: one urban in which Islam and its traditional customs, art, and literature have largely died; the other rural and isolated in which women still wear black shawls and Moslem values have more than historical significance. But, in sum, Islam lingers on more as a source of tradition than as an actively worshipped religion. While such Moslem customs persist as circumcision, religious proverbs, naming of children with Allah's attributes, and early marriage for women, the five pillars of faith are no longer observed. Zakat [alms] is forbidden, public prayer is quite rare, Ramadan (month of fasting) conflicts with work schedules and is effectively discouraged, and Hajj is limited to a handful of token pilgrims allowed to visit Mecca."
According to an old New York Times article, it reported:
"Western and other foreign specialists here are skeptical of a theory widely circulated in the West that the Soviet Military intervention in Afghanistan was motivated largely by fear that a spread of Islamic fundamentalism through Central Asia might infect the adjacent Soviet Moslem peoples.
"Diplomats and journalists who have traveled recently in the Moslem republics of Soviet Central Asia and the Caucasus report that religion has been eroded in the lives of the 40 million or so people of Moslem tradition. ...
"The Soviet authorities seem to feel complete confidence now in the loyalty of their Moslem peoples, ... Moscow's confidence appears to be illustrated by reports from Afghanistan that many of the soldiers sent for the intervention are Tadzhiks or others of Moslem tradition.
"The atmosphere is even more secular in Central Asia than in Moslem areas of the Caucasus. The mosques, minarets and mausoleums of ancient glory are state museums now, tourist attractions. The small and humble mosques open for worship are sparsely attended by the elderly. Young people are seldom seen there."
(New York Times, 13 January 1980, p. A:14, and 12 April 1980, pp. 1, 6.)
as a religious person AND a Marxist I'm kinda your demographic here. honestly, in a lot of ways I do believe that Marx's analysis of religion, as a symptom of the ills of capitalism, is pretty spot-on and that in the event of a revolution religion itself will probably shift forms to conform to a post-revolutionary society. whether that means religion will "die out" (lol) or more likely, shift in terms of its expression, I'm not sure.
One thing is for sure, socialists shouldn't be building anymore mosques, temples, churches or synagogues because that would be a waste of resources. Secondly the imams, gurus, pastors and other such holy men should be obliged to work. Preaching religion is not work the same way that masturbation is not love.
"Machinery in itself is a victory of man over the forces of nature, but in the hands of capital it makes man the slave of those forces" - Uncle Karl
Believe in what you want to believe but for your own good you should start saying you are an Atheist that pretty much it
Religion should not be banned politically in a democratic socialist society. The freedom of belief is a fundamental human right.
However, religions should be discouraged, and reactionary elements in religions should be opposed directly. Marxists also do not really defend religions from militant atheist attacks, even though we don't attack religions directly as militant atheists do. Marxism is neither anti-theist nor anti-anti-theist.
[FONT=System]Long Live Proletarian Democracy!
Down with All Imperialisms!
[/FONT]
most. fucked up. videos. ever.
Benny Hinn also has pretty weird connections to crime, has personal jets and bodyguards, etc., but still asks for money--which I was going to call unchristian but its the same as the pope so it's pretty damn christian.
Having said that, there's a really good article that I think I maybe read from a Bordigist website that said something like "religion cannot be negatively suppressed; it can only be positively superceded" which is a good approach. Marx (in the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right) says that religion is both an expression of suffering and a protest against suffering through mystified means--i don't think religion will go away until people actually consciously control their lives and their world (which won't happen overnight after the revolution), as people learn to run their own lives any kind of interventionist God makes less and less sense and fulfills less and less of a need, and religion becomes mostly cultural attachment to particular myths, and I think once people stop being totally powerless in society, the control these myths exert over them and the guilt that convinces the next generation to continue the traditions will have less of a material base and it will be much easier for people to discard religion altogether. But no one should force anyone to.
