Ireland

[Demogorgon]

That is based on the false auspice that Northern Ireland was created by the democratic will of the Irish people, it was'nt. It was deliberately Gerrymandered by the British on the basis of areas of unionist majority to mantain their political foothold there. Or as Connolly referred to it a 'carnival of reactionism'.

Before then Northern Ireland was not an entity. there was no geographic, historical or social argument for the definition of Northern Ireland's borders other than the interests of the british bourgeoisie and to perpetuate the sectarian belief that protestants are superior. That is no basis on which to found a nation.

This, I am afraid to say, is an example of how a bad argument can potentially undermine a good cause. Do you think states come about due to just border settlements and the democratic will of their inhabitants? There was a lot of injustice in the partition of Ireland, but that has happened in determining the vast majority of European borders and at any rate provides no justification in of itself for wanting to redraw borders.

You might say for instance that there was no historical basis for the six county state-which obviously there wasn't, but that argument falls apart as soon as you argue just how much historical basis is needed, because there is now ninety years of it. This is a self defeating argument.

Any argument for reunification has to be based on the benefits it would bring today not because of disputes from a century ago or because the current set up does not meet some platonic ideal of what a state should look like.

[Madvillainy]

What about them? Weren't you saying that the Catholic Irish population in the North should just shut up and put up? Dublin at least has, unlike Belfast, never pretended to be a 'A Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People'

Well maybe, but I would wonder if prods could have equality under a united Ireland, they believe they wouldn't and in a historical context I don't blame them after all your beloved southern government did have openly anti protestant laws and measures.

At the end of the day it comes down to whether you think the struggle for communism transgresses the national question or not, I think that point is lost on far too many 'socialists'.

[The Grey Blur]

i think the point that is lost on many 'socialists' is how the national question colours the entire class question in the north...

[Che a chara]

Well maybe, but I would wonder if prods could have equality under a united Ireland, they believe they wouldn't and in a historical context I don't blame them after all your beloved southern government did have openly anti protestant laws and measures.

Which where ? You maybe right, but I don't mind many, if any, especially in the last century and a half.

[Conquer or Die]

Many workers would class themselves as 'unionist', should their deaths also be 'applauded' by the left wing?

Take your terroristic anti worker bullshit elsewhere.

Plenty of reactionary workers, actually. Heart on your sleeve response will earn you plaudits, but not victories.

I'll admit that I have a colored perception of the struggle in Northern Ireland. I'm not going to contradict the "revisionist" record known to history because there are contradictions that exist. Under such conditions I would alleviate the burden of thinking the American Civil War was about slavery (which, ironically enough, plenty of people seem not to believe on revleft).

I'm not here to cheer on terrorism. But if you believe that violence is sometimes necessary then it's hard to justify Occupied Ireland and it's hard to dismiss the IRA as a completely illegitimate entity that failed. Plenty of Provos died for good causes. If you're going to piss that away because of "non" revisionist history and personal political beliefs then damn you, regardless of where you live.

[ComradeMan]

Two elephants clash- the grass weeps.