A few questions regarding religion, patriotism and abortion

[Red Poplar]

I joined this forum today, so I have a few questions to ask:

1) I noticed that many socialists are anti-religious. What are the points of conflict between socialism and religion, if any?

2) Is patriotism an overrated quality? Is there something wrong with being proud of your nation and country, while you don't disrespect the others? Or does it cause rivalry between nations?

3) What are your views on abortion (not in cases of rape or endangered health, but on request)? Is it a woman's legitimate right to terminate a pregnancy with no explanation needed? On the other hand, if socialism promotes equality, then doesn't a fetus (a genetically formed human) have the right to live, just as we do?

I'd like to discuss these topics, so I'm looking forward to your answers and opinions.

[DaComm]

I joined this forum today, so I have a few questions to ask:

1) I noticed that many socialists are anti-religious. What are the points of conflict between socialism and religion, if any?

2) Is patriotism an overrated quality? Is there something wrong with being proud of your nation and country, while you don't disrespect the others? Or does it cause rivalry between nations?

3) What are your views on abortion (not in cases of rape or endangered health, but on request)? Is it a woman's legitimate right to terminate a pregnancy with no explanation needed? On the other hand, if socialism promotes equality, then doesn't a fetus (a genetically formed human) have the right to live, just as we do?

I'd like to discuss these topics, so I'm looking forward to your answers and opinions.

1. The idea is that religion serves the purpose of forming anti-unity boundaries which are counter-international. Religion does not serve any practical purpose; religion brought to us no medical advancements, it has brought gender/race inequality, etc. Organized religion does not advance our cause.
2. Most countries are Capitalist. To have a love your country, that likely means you love Capitalism. This is often the case, but not necessarily all the time.
3. I am pro-abortion because I believe the rights of an unborn fetus should not be able to override the rights of the birthing woman.

[Queercommie Girl]

I joined this forum today, so I have a few questions to ask:

1) I noticed that many socialists are anti-religious. What are the points of conflict between socialism and religion, if any?

Religion is reactionary in 3 main senses:

1) Historically religion has virtually always been associated to a significant extent with reactionary socio-economic and political structures, such as the feudal and bourgeois state. Indeed, many religious institutions are themselves an integral part of the oppressive class structure in the most concrete economic sense - e.g. the lamas in Tibet were the biggest landlords in the country;

2) Generally speaking traditional religions always tend to hold reactionary homophobic/transphobic/sexist viewpoints and sometimes even racist views. This is not to say that all religious people are like this, but objectively it is indeed a significant trait. Don't most forms of traditional religion hold that men and women should have relatively rigid gender roles in society and that homosexual sex is unnatural? For a genuine progressive socialist like me frankly these viewpoints are not really acceptable;

3) Religions discourage critical thinking and the rational scientific method. Some forms of religions are explicitly anti-science (e.g. those arguing for Intelligent Design). In almost every type of religion, there is always some kind of irrational superstitious belief at its core, like the idea of "virgin birth" in traditional Christianity or "multiple lifetimes" in traditional Buddhism.

2) Is patriotism an overrated quality? Is there something wrong with being proud of your nation and country, while you don't disrespect the others? Or does it cause rivalry between nations?

"Nationalism" is a product of class society. More specifically, modern nationalism is a consequence of bourgeois society. Fundamentally speaking, socialism is internationalist, "the proletariat has no nationalities".

3) What are your views on abortion (not in cases of rape or endangered health, but on request)? Is it a woman's legitimate right to terminate a pregnancy with no explanation needed? On the other hand, if socialism promotes equality, then doesn't a fetus (a genetically formed human) have the right to live, just as we do?

I don't know much about this matter but I support the right to have an abortion as a woman's own free choice. People should have the fundamental right to decide what to do with their bodies, whether it's having an abortion or having a sex change.

In Marxism "human" is not defined genetically, but socially. A fetus is not a human in the socio-economic sense. On the other hand, we consider a transwoman to be a woman socially even though she is still genetically male.

[Magón]

I joined this forum today, so I have a few questions to ask:

1) I noticed that many socialists are anti-religious. What are the points of conflict between socialism and religion, if any?

Well for one, Religion is highly restrictive on people's lives. Such as what they can eat, see, do, etc. In other words, religions are highly against anything that would give people true freedom to be themselves because they want control over you/followers. Religion may give you some freedoms, but so does the United States. It doesn't make what else they're doing right. For example, in '31 Spain-'39 Spain, the Catholic Church condemned the Republic and the rest of the Left-Wing; instead siding with Franco and his Goons to take power once again over the people of Spain, etc. Luckily, the Spanish people after Franco kicked it told the Church to go to hell, and they no longer have the power they once did. Religions are a form of control, and controlling people (as an Anarchist) goes against any form of freedom, and restricts people to do as they please. Whether that's have as much sex as you want, any way you want, with whoever you want, it doesn't matter. But to religions, it does.

2) Is patriotism an overrated quality? Is there something wrong with being proud of your nation and country, while you don't disrespect the others? Or does it cause rivalry between nations?

I like to use the quote, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a Scoundrel." Mainly because it holds water when talking about Patriotism. Also because if you haven't realized, most "Patriots" are Right-Wingers and are scoundrels to say the least. Sure there are Left-Wing Patriots, but really as an Anarchist I have no patriotism for any form of State; whether it be Mexico (where I grew up), France, Germany, US, etc. Those who are Patriots in my eyes, are scoundrels who hide behind a specific State banner, and which ever way that State banner waves, the scoundrels follow.

3) What are your views on abortion (not in cases of rape or endangered health, but on request)? Is it a woman's legitimate right to terminate a pregnancy with no explanation needed? On the other hand, if socialism promotes equality, then doesn't a fetus (a genetically formed human) have the right to live, just as we do?

I'm all pro-choice. I think though, there needs to be an obvious limit. If you're a woman who's nine months into the pregnancy, then having an abortion is a form of murder. I say anywhere between the time of conception and knowing you/chick are pregnant, to about a month tops. Anything more, and it's looking more Human than ever. So I'm pro-choice, but to an extent where I think it's either have the kid or don't. If you can't make up your mind (which I realize isn't an easy thing to do, but I think it's reasonable) then it's whatever you finally choose. But I think the basic, normal abortion time is from knowing you're/the chick is pregnant to a month.

[Sasha]

I'd like to discuss these topics, so I'm looking forward to your answers and opinions.

if you want too discuss these topics shouldnt you give your opinions on the subjects at hand.
since your not asking an question you are seeking our opinion it would be only fair if you would do the same.

[Red Poplar]

-

[Queercommie Girl]

Thank you all for your time and patience. Psycho, you're right, I should have given my opinions, I just didn't want to influence the first answers. I'll do it now:

1) I'm a Catholic, but I still consider myself a socialist. It's because, for me, Catholic Church and religion are not the same thing. C.C. is a human organization, and it's undoubtedly true that its leaders have used their influence over the people to control them. But to condemn an entire religion because of that is just like to say that communism is evil because Stalin's USSR was a totalitarian regime. I don't blindly believe in everything written in the Bible, nor brainwashing by the C.C. (such as masturbation or premarital sex being a sin, lol). I don't take anything for granted, but I do believe in God.

Philosophically since Marxism is materialist we obviously disagree with your basic theological position. However, Marxism is not militant atheism. We think religions emerge due to certain concrete socio-economic factors, and direct attacks on religion are usually counter-productive.

Objectively there has been certain economically leftist tendencies in Catholicism and other religions, such as Liberation Theology. There is no reason why Marxists can't co-operate with such political forces, as long as they do not consciously try to convert us.

However, a major problem in most forms of Western religions is that they are generally not inclusive with respect to other religious traditions. Modern Catholicism is somewhat better in this regard compared with Protestant fundamentalism but the lack of inclusiveness and tolerance for other religions could become a real problem in the concrete sense since it would directly act to politically divide workers of different faiths.

2) I do think that patriotism is overrated, however since my nation was under various types of oppression for eight centuries, then fought a war 15 years ago, I can't help having some patriotic feelings. Nevertheless, I don't divide people by nation or race.

There is a difference between Nationalism and National Liberation. The former is reactionary, but in many circumstances the latter can be partially progressive when it fights against imperialism and colonialism.

3) I'm pro-life, except in cases of endangered maternal health or rape. However, I don't think that banning abortion would do any good, so I think people should be sexually educated and encouraged to use birth control instead of terminate pregnancies.

As I said, I don't know much about this matter and for me it is not as important as the other two points but I think objectively if there are very good sex education, birth control and adoption agencies available, then the frequency of abortions would drop.

I asked these questions because I felt that I don't fit into a typical image of a socialist.

There is no such thing as a "typical socialist" in the stereotypical sense, we come from every possible background and walks of life. There is probably more disagreements among the different tendencies of Marxism and anarchism than there is between socialists and capitalists. LOL (Objectively this is obviously false, but it often feels this way)

[Sasha]

3) I'm pro-life, except in cases of endangered maternal health or rape. However, I don't think that banning abortion would do any good, so I think people should be sexually educated and encouraged to use birth control instead of terminate pregnancies.

ay, sorry but i'll have to restrict you, we believe that the right to abortion is an unconditional right all leftists should support.
i'll move your thread to the learning section of the restricted forum though so you can debate your points fully.

moved

[Red Poplar]

You put me among "opposing ideologies" just because I'm pro-life? As far as I know, I haven't judged anyone because of their views, I just expressed my own, so I don't understand this. I joined this forum thinking that nobody would want to shut my mouth because of my personal opinion. In fact, Psycho, it was YOU who asked me about my opinion in the first place. I thought reactionaries censor other people's opinions because they are too insecure. Aren't you being a little hypocritical?

[Bud Struggle]

You put me among "opposing ideologies" just because I'm pro-life? As far as I know, I haven't judged anyone because of their views, I just expressed my own, so I don't understand this. I joined this forum thinking that nobody would want to shut my mouth because of my personal opinion. In fact, Psycho, it was YOU who asked me about my opinion in the first place. I thought reactionaries censor other people's opinions because they are too insecure. Aren't you being a little hypocritical?

FWIW Comrade: RevLeft is fearcely PRO Abortion. It's not a position up for debate. The position is well publicized and widely known. They have their reasons for their belief, you can ask them to clarify, but I doubt they will change anything.

That being said you can post anything you want (shy of love letters to Adolph Hitler) and enjoy many a fruitful conversation here in OI. It's really quite plesent here.

[Ovi]

3) I'm pro-life, except in cases of endangered maternal health or rape. However, I don't think that banning abortion would do any good, so I think people should be sexually educated and encouraged to use birth control instead of terminate pregnancies.

What is pro-life anyway? Isn't there a difference between trying to convince a person one knows not to engage in abortion and using force against it?

[#FF0000]

You put me among "opposing ideologies" just because I'm pro-life? As far as I know, I haven't judged anyone because of their views, I just expressed my own, so I don't understand this. I joined this forum thinking that nobody would want to shut my mouth because of my personal opinion. In fact, Psycho, it was YOU who asked me about my opinion in the first place. I thought reactionaries censor other people's opinions because they are too insecure. Aren't you being a little hypocritical?

We restrict people for a few reasons. To keep capitalists and social democrats from turning every thread in the main forums into capitalism vs. socialism, or reform vs. revolution. We are a forum for Revolutionary Socialists.

But we also restrict on the basis of pro-choice or anti-choice because we want to try to make this forum a place where comrades of any gender, race, age, or whatever, to be comfortable and talk to other comrades as equals. That being said, opposition to abortion is, materially, a sexist position.

That isn't saying you harbor any contempt for women in general. People can hold positions that are materially sexist without any malice towards women. What it means is that abortion, for whatever reason you want to support it, restricts women's bodily autonomy, infringing on their rights to control their own body.

So, anyway, could you clarify your position for us? From the sounds of it, you just don't like the idea of abortion, but you aren't in favor of restricting it. Why do you describe yourself as pro-life?

[Red Poplar]

Should I really clarify my position? Or will you ban me permanently if I do it?

Anyway - I describe myself as pro-life because I consider a fetus a human being in development, and since socialism promotes equality, we should all have an equal right to be born. If a born baby is a human, then a 10-week fetus is also a human, it's not a dolphin that suddenly transforms into a human. Abortion doesn't count in the right to control your body, because the fetus is an independent body with its own DNA. As for the fact that its nervous system is too undeveloped to feel pain, well people in coma also don't feel pain, so does it give us a right to kill them as well? Bottom line - I consider abortion a murder, unless justified by health issues, or rape.

OPPOSITION TO ABORTION IS NOT A SEXIST POSITION. There are pro-life feminists, such as the American organization Feminists for Life, which uphold rights of both women and fetuses. It's much more practical, and also more humane to use birth control instead of destroying an already formed life. I'm not in favor of restricting it (I would restrict the number of abortions by person though) because statistics have proven that banning abortion doesn't lead to a decline of that practice.

Finally, I didn't know that this forum is strictly pro-choice, if I did, I wouldn't have started this discussion. I respect everyone's opinions, so I respect pro-choice views. So you could have warned at least. Therefore I consider that I was unjustifiably restricted, and offended as well. I may have made a mistake by joining, since people here are obviously more closed-minded than right-wingers.

[#FF0000]

Should I really clarify my position? Or will you ban me permanently if I do it?

No. You were restricted in accordance with the rules where it clearly states that pro-life positions are an OI.

Anyway - I describe myself as pro-life because I consider a fetus a human being in development, and since socialism promotes equality, we should all have an equal right to be born. If a born baby is a human, then a 10-week fetus is also a human, it's not a dolphin that suddenly transforms into a human.

No it's not a dolphin, but it isn't a human, either. It is a fetus. Not a human being. I mean, you might not see it that way, but medically and scientifically, a fetus is not a person.

Abortion doesn't count in the right to control your body, because the fetus is an independent body with its own DNA. As for the fact that its nervous system is too undeveloped to feel pain, well people in coma also don't feel pain, so does it give us a right to kill them as well? Bottom line - I consider abortion a murder, unless justified by health issues, or rape.

A coma patient is a human being, though. A fetus is not.

OPPOSITION TO ABORTION IS NOT A SEXIST POSITION. There are pro-life feminists, such as the American organization Feminists for Life, which uphold rights of both women and fetuses. It's much more practical, and also more humane to use birth control instead of destroying an already formed life. I'm not in favor of restricting it (I would restrict the number of abortions by person though) because statistics have proven that banning abortion doesn't lead to a decline of that practice.

People can call themselves feminists and still advocate a sexist position, of course. Also, birth control can fail. What then?

Finally, I didn't know that this forum is strictly pro-choice, if I did, I wouldn't have started this discussion. I respect everyone's opinions, so I respect pro-choice views. So you could have warned at least.

Well, it does say that we consider pro-life positions to be an OI in the rules that you agreed to when you signed up.

Therefore I consider that I was unjustifiably restricted, and offended as well. I may have made a mistake by joining, since people here are obviously more closed-minded than right-wingers.

The abortion issue is one that was voted on. Many, many times. If you have an issue with it, you can make a post in the Member's forum protesting the rule.

[Red Poplar]

No, I won't protest the rule. As I have said, I respect everyone's opinions, so if you voted pro-choice, I'm fine with it. I joined this forum yesterday, so I haven't found time to carefully read all the rules. And I'll repeat for the third time, I wasn't trying to convince anyone that I'm right, I just answered a question from a moderator. Regardless of your rules, this counts as a violation of the freedom of opinion.

I want to know if you'll keep me restricted or can we come to an agreement, so that I know if all this is still worth my time. I'm a reasonable person, the question is whether you are.

[#FF0000]

Yeah we'll see. This is sort of a strange situation since you're pro-life but then don't think we should do anything to stop abortions.

[Red Poplar]

I think we should sexually educate young people in order to reduce the number of abortions, that's my opinion, and we shouldn't disagree on that. But really, the abortion issue isn't that important on a site like this, so I don't have to mention it ever again.

[Queercommie Girl]

Personally I think "verbal warnings" should be given out more liberally here but "restrictions" and "bans" should be used more sparingly.

[Jolly Red Giant]

It's pretty clear from reading your comments Red Poplar, that you are Irish. I empathise with the views you ae outlining here as I come from the same background and grew up with exactly that same outlook. You will find that there are many people who post on this forum who can adopt a dogmatic approach to many issues while totally ignoring the circumstances which impacted on the creation of these opinions.

1) I'm a Catholic, but I still consider myself a socialist. It's because, for me, Catholic Church and religion are not the same thing. C.C. is a human organization, and it's undoubtedly true that its leaders have used their influence over the people to control them. But to condemn an entire religion because of that is just like to say that communism is evil because Stalin's USSR was a totalitarian regime. I don't blindly believe in everything written in the Bible, nor brainwashing by the C.C. (such as masturbation or premarital sex being a sin, lol). I don't take anything for granted, but I do believe in God.

I was born into a staunchly Catholic family. I still hold the record (after nearly 40 years) for the most masses attended as a mass server in the local church in the town where I grew up (a record that will probably never be broken given the significant drop off in mass attendance). Religion, particularly in a country like Ireland, can be hugely important in people's lives and play a hugely important role in people's outlook. This needs to be recognised and accepted by those on the left - and in a lot of cases it is simply dismissed. While my father was a staunch Catholic he was also a trade union activist and a socialist. It was his influence, his outlook of the necessity in society for people to be treated fairly and with honesty that was the biggest factor in me becoming a left-wing activist and Marxist. His outlook was determined by his belief in the rights of working class people to fair play and his religious beliefs, they cannot be seperated. We are all products of our environment.

My partner was also born into a staunchly Catholic family. She spent the first twenty years of her life engaging with religion. Her outlook on society, on abortion (which I will come onto in a little bit), on the treatment of human beings was determined by her religious upbringing. Yet it was her religious beliefs that eventually led her to socialism, to Marxism and to left-wing political activity. She is now an athiest and supports a woman's right to abortion - but that is a journey that she has travelled over 25 years and not necessarily one that everyone will travel or is necessary to travel. I have known priests who have been better socialists, better defenders of the rights of workers and the poor and have a better understanding of socialism than the vast majority of the internet warriors that frequent online message boards.

There are many parts of the world where religion is not a factor in determining an individual's outlook, Ireland is not one of them. That saying, the influence of religion in Ireland is most definitely waning. In Ireland socialists still need to be conscious that some people's outlook is most definitely determined by religion. Many socialist simply dismiss those that express a religious belief and this is a mistake.

Now there is a difference in an individual practising their religion and in religious hierarchy. Religious hierarchy is an arm of the state. It is part of the superstructure that the dominant social, political and economic class use to maintain control of society. Religious hierarchy was used in slave times, in feudal times and now under captialism. In Ireland the education system is almost completely dominated by religious hierarchy, the hospital system is significantly dominated by religious heirarchy, charities are dominated by religious hierarchy etc etc. And these are used by the bourgeoisie and the state to influence, manipulate and control the working classes and the poor. There are now many areas of the world where religious hierarchy is not a religious movement but a political one - and a movement that wants to return society to the type of religious domination and oppression that existed during the middle ages.

Religious hierarchy must be confronted by socialists. However, as a socialist, I also defend the right of individuals to have a religious belief and to practice that religion. There is a caveat - those holding this religious belief and practising this religion must not attempt to influence others in society on the basis of religion. In order to do this there must be no hierarchy, no structure that facilitates the use of religion for political purposes. People should be free to practice their religion if they wish, religion should not be free to impact on society.

As a final point - there will be times when your religious beliefs and your understand of socialism will come into conflict - it is up to you to determine how to resolve them. I would suggest that when this happens you ask yourself - Do I hold this belief because I am a socialist or because I am a Catholic? and why?

2) I do think that patriotism is overrated, however since my nation was under various types of oppression for eight centuries, then fought a war 15 years ago, I can't help having some patriotic feelings. Nevertheless, I don't divide people by nation or race.

Again coming from Ireland I can greatly appreciate what you are saying. I started political life as a nationalist, then became a republican and supported the 'anti-imperialist struggle' (and you will see this termed used to significant degree on this forum), before investigating and studying Marxist literature, discussing with socialists of all strands of opinion etc, before drawing my own conclusions and becoming a Marxist who adopts the view that the tactics of republcianism (and those on the left who support it) have failed and indeed cannot succeed.

Taking the views and attitudes that your environment has created and reviewing them, analysing them and reconsidering them, is a journey that only you can undertake. Every single day my outlook on some aspect of my politics changes. Every day I have questions that when answered, inevitably lead to more questions. There is no absolute truth, only a journey that we all must travel on. It is inevitable that some socialists will get side-tracked and arrive at a dead end - that is where dogmatism sets in.

So you already appeared to have started on your journey. You acknowledge that you have 'patriotic feelings', yet you have advanced from that by stating that you don't 'divide people by nation or race' (I would add religion) - so you have embarked on your journey of finding out about the nature of society and why and how it needs to be changed. I encourage you to continue. (Christ - I hope this doesn't sound too evangelical).

3) I'm pro-life, except in cases of endangered maternal health or rape. However, I don't think that banning abortion would do any good, so I think people should be sexually educated and encouraged to use birth control instead of terminate pregnancies.

Again - this is most definitely the starting point of many activists in Ireland who end up as socialist - and again something that those lefts who do not come from Ireland find difficult to understand - and some in Ireland never understood.

The social, political, economic and religious environment in Ireland inevitable means that 'pro-life' is ingrained in people's outlook. As with religion and patriotism - it is an issue that needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

I was so-called 'pro-life' (it's not actually 'pro-life' it is simply anti-abortion and 'anti-' a whole lot of other things as well). During my first year in college Ireland was debating the the first 'pro-life' ammendment to the constitution. Shortly after starting college I became active in the student union eventually ending up as the union's welfare officer (no one else wanted the job). The college have a very active SPUC group and the leaders of the SU were all staunch supporters. The college will covered in SPUC posters depicting aborted foetuses. One day a young female student and her boyfriend came to me to ask me if I could do something about taking the posters down. I gave my usual rant about free-speech. It turned out that that the girl had become pregnant as a result of rape and subsequently had an abortion. She was completely traumatised by the experience and by the campaign then being waged in the college. A number of people suspected that she had had an abortion and some of the more dogmatic SPUC people had begun to target her as a murderer. My outlook began to change at this point. It changed even further when she attempted suicide a week later. I went to the SU council and eventually (with significant assistance from others) got the posters removed.

My partner travelled a different path. She campaigned for the 'pro-life' ammendment and was dogmatically 'pro-life'. Seeing the way the right-wing were being triumphalist after the referendum softened her views. However, it was not until she was pregnant with our first child that she realised all the pressures and stresses, hormones and mood swings etc etc that pregnant women are subjected to. She came to understand that no one can adopt an absolutist position on abortion.

The Socialist Party (the political group I am a member of) has traditionally understood the nature of Irish people to feel 'pro-life' because of the environment that they are brought up in as children in Ireland and adopted its position on abortion accordingly. The Socialist Party supports the right of women to safe abortion, with proper counselling and supports. However, recognising that some people can have deeply held views on the issue of abortion, it is the one position that we do not insist members must defend publically (with the exception of elected representatives).

Red Poplar - you are correct about the need for proper sex education in schools, proper understanding of the use of contraceptives etc - but the reality is that the need for access to abortion can never be eliminated. I have summarised my reasoning for this here on a previous thread -

http://www.revleft.com/vb/abortion-t...35#post1745035

I asked these questions because I felt that I don't fit into a typical image of a socialist.

For a Irish socialist you are starting at exactly the same point as a significant majority of Irish socialists. The most prominent Marxist in Ireland at the moment is Joe Higgins, Socialist Party MEP. Joe Higgins started his political life in a seminary as a student priest. There is no typical image of a 'socialist'. It is not something that is static - i.e. there is no diving line over which you must step to become a socialist. If you want to know whether you have a socialist outlook or not ask youself these questions (and they are not exclusive) - you will know by your answers where you are on the political spectrum.
1. Do you believe that everyone should have a roof over their head, enough food to eat, a decent health service, a proper education system and be free from the threat of war?
2. Do you instinctively feel when some is being treated unjustly?
3. Do you understand that existing society has a system of the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' and does it abhor you?
4. Are you willing to do something to change it?

If you want to discuss any of this further feel free to either post here or PM me.

[Red Poplar]

I'm honestly disappointed with the mindset of this forum. Instead of uniting the Left against capitalism, this forum thrashes everyone who doesn't think exactly the same way as the majority here does. With such mentality, we'll never seize power, and communists will always be thought of as extremist lunatics. Open your minds, people! Nobody wants censorship in the 21st century, nobody wants to replace the current oppression with another one, which even restricts free speech. Besides, what's the point of a forum if everyone thinks the same? Dear admins, you need to change yourself and be more democratic, otherwise you'll never gain mass popularity and you'll spend entire life on forums, and not in the real world, among the PEOPLE.