The 4 Hour Work Day

[nickdlc]

We have had the 8 hour work day in most advanced capitalist countries for about a century now. Wouldn't a 4 hour workday be the kind of reform that could really unite the left and the great mass of workers at this time?

From what I've read the union movement largely grew out of the demand for the 8 hour work day, with the struggle for a 4 hour work day couldn't new forms of labour organisation arise or even the return of workers councils?

With this we would have 4 hours of work 10 hours of rest, 10 hours leisure, that's something I think your average worker could really get behind! With this demand wages would have to rise as well, but why not productivity has risen dramatically since the introduction of the 8 hour work day.

[fa2991]

This idea goes back to Kropotkin, and probably before him. It's a damn fine idea.

[anticap]

Worker output is now more than twice what it was during the so-called "Golden Age of Capitalism," which means that we could be working half as long now as we did then, while enjoying an even higher standard of living (considering the technological advances in consumer goods).

Instead, we're working the same amount or even longer -- yet we haven't seen our standard of living double along with our output.

Why?

Because capitalists are compelled by the competitive nature of the system to keep us working as long as possible for as little as possible; and this will never change until we demand shorter hours and higher wages, and enforce those demands by whatever means we have available to us, which at present means the state.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Around 10 years ago here in Sweden, the whole labour movement where standing together in the demand for 6h working day. For some reasons (i dont know really why) they stopped and today this subject is never debated and if someone suggeste it some smartass liberal will just say; "Its impossible".
However ive also heard that in most industrialized countries 4h working day would absolutley be possible, it would be good to have some economic that has counted on this. I know that in the last decades people work longer and faster, productivity has doubbled in the west and in the same time unemployment has grown, so simply speaking there are fewer doing more today in a higher tempo, so yeah there should be a bigger entusiasm for this.

[NecroCommie]

I am completely behind this, and I have been active within a small sect of finnish youth that promotes 6-hour workday. When discussing this matter, however, one must remember that within a capitalist system this would lead to a greatly diminished competitive position for the workers in a country that has a 4-hour workday as a law. The companies would start to have high interests at transfering all jobs abroad.

4-hour workday demands an economy that is dictated from the state to a great extent, or that is completely democratic.

[AK]

4-hour workday demands an economy that is dictated from the state to a great extent, or that is completely democratic.

Think I'll choose option B.

[nickdlc]

A reasonable counter argument to the 4 hour wok day might be that it would the force the capitalists to exploit us to unforeseen ways. If we demand a 4 hour work day for the same compensation when we were working 8 hours, capitalists would have to find a way to make the same profit in less time.This would be an 100% pay increase to the wokers in their respective country. To make up for this they would have to invest hugely in labour saving technology that would no doubt lead to a considerable amount of newly unemployed workers, or move to areas that are more "favourable"

Capitalists would no doubt shit their pants. It seems to me the 4 hour work day would have to be a global movement to work. What are your experiences in the move to a 6 hour work day in Finland Necrocommie and along what organisational lines are you trying to achieve it?

[NecroCommie]

Capitalists would no doubt shit their pants. It seems to me the 4 hour work day would have to be a global movement to work. What are your experiences in the move to a 6 hour work day in Finland Necrocommie and along what organisational lines are you trying to achieve it?

It was a very small movement that only had enough members to support activity in the capital region. (I say was because I have moved elsewhere). Our activities consist(ed) mostly on trying to raise awareness, although with relatively good success when considering our small numbers.

Personally I have no idea if the movement was ever as large as in Sweden for example.

[Blackscare]

The idea is great if all we're talking about is industrial output, etc. Sadly, since much of the west is "post-industrial" ie, highly focused on service industry, it's harder to shorten the work day. This is because it's not simply a matter of meeting some quota of productivity per day and cutting the work day short accordingly. Retail and dining though are dependent on consumers visiting locations and making purchases, which means stores must stay open.

[Thirsty Crow]

I am completely behind this, and I have been active within a small sect of finnish youth that promotes 6-hour workday. When discussing this matter, however, one must remember that within a capitalist system this would lead to a greatly diminished competitive position for the workers in a country that has a 4-hour workday as a law. The companies would start to have high interests at transfering all jobs abroad.

4-hour workday demands an economy that is dictated from the state to a great extent, or that is completely democratic.

That is the basic reason I would support it within the confines of a capitalist socio-economic formation. Like the measures proposed in the Communist Manifesto, this as well should be taken as a means of producing disturbance within the capitalist-state complex, and thus sky rocketing class struggle.

The idea is great if all we're talking about is industrial output, etc. Sadly, since much of the west is "post-industrial" ie, highly focused on service industry, it's harder to shorten the work day. This is because it's not simply a matter of meeting some quota of productivity per day and cutting the work day short accordingly. Retail and dining though are dependent on consumers visiting locations and making purchases, which means stores must stay open.

Yeah, and stores can double their hired workforce, which would lead to a shortening of shifts' working hours. Thank god we have the reserve army of labour embodied in all those unemployed. Where's the problem?

A reasonable counter argument to the 4 hour wok day might be that it would the force the capitalists to exploit us to unforeseen ways. If we demand a 4 hour work day for the same compensation when we were working 8 hours, capitalists would have to find a way to make the same profit in less time.This would be an 100% pay increase to the wokers in their respective country. To make up for this they would have to invest hugely in labour saving technology that would no doubt lead to a considerable amount of newly unemployed workers, or move to areas that are more "favourable"

How about a moratorium on any cuts in wages?
The 4 hour work day is unrealistic. That's why organized movements should push for it, because it will cause a direct and open class confrontation.

[NecroCommie]

That is the basic reason I would support it within the confines of a capitalist socio-economic formation. Like the measures proposed in the Communist Manifesto, this as well should be taken as a means of producing disturbance within the capitalist-state complex, and thus sky rocketing class struggle.

First we must understand that "rocking the capitalist boat" does not cause class struggle in itself, but rather politial polarization to either or both directions (left or right). This particular sort of in-equality would turn out to be national in nature, which gives a great threat of rising nationalist movements who would "defend the nation's right to compete on the world market" Meaning of course the "right" to work more for the capitalist.

This rhetoric is very usual in nordic nationalist movements, because the jobs are leaving this place precisely due to strict labor laws.

Don't get me wrong, we completely ought to do this, but we ought to do it very carefully. We should make it very certain that this is an act of class struggle and not some boring by-product of parliamentarism.

[Sexy Red]

Depends on the job in question. Every job requires a different amount of time and effort. A universal set limit wouldn't work.

[blake 3:17]

I believe that USFI proposed a 16 work week in one of its programmatic statements.

From what I've read the union movement largely grew out of the demand for the 8 hour work day, with the struggle for a 4 hour work day couldn't new forms of labour organisation arise or even the return of workers councils?

There is a devil in the details around workers democracy and that would be the expansion of meetings. In an economically rational society that possessed wealth, infrastructure, and not subject to immperial intervention, many jobs could be eliminated and there could be genuine full employment. A rationalization of necessary reproductive labour and commuting time would lead to an enormous qualitative expansion of free time. There are crazy amounts of wasted time, energy, and ecological destruction due to people working too much.

Casualization of work is awful on people and the planet.

About ten years a local anti-poverty group was enlisted by postal workers to put a picket line against managers. The line was effective and the workers got their work done in 6 hours instead of 8.

The two biggest challenges to effective self management is austerity and lack of time.