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I realize that I’ve been a bit too involved in all these recent events to form any true unbiased opinions on things. I just want too say that I’m sorry for posting while still being so affected by everything. I just want to thank PCE for making me realize that patriotism has been slipping into my language. That isn’t the kind of person I am and hope people understand that I have just been reacting to what has gone on around me. I do value other’s opinions and I value this bb as it is a truly remarkable site for open philosophical and political thought. Some good things have been said that both give me support and also help keep me down to earth. I think it is only natural for people to empathies with what’s going on around them. Patriotism is out in full force as New Yorkers and Americans try to pull together. Not being New Yorkers you probably have a better outlook on how we look to the rest of the world. I hope to learn from that, as I believe in a revolution of education.
In Solidarity,
RC
american patriotism seems to be creeping into numerous countries. i was really disturbed when i found out that canada, france etc sang the american anthem at their memorial services. i understand that this was a great tragedy but i think this is going too far
its one thing to show solidarity but its another to remind the us that they rule the world
and don't worry i forgive you . . i think i know you well enough to realize you're not a patriot
I AM THE PERFECT ME!
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.15
is it so bad to love your nation?
for the love of love
yes its bad but only when your nation its the number one imperialistic, capitalistic in the world...
all off this is a bit sad but also demostrates that all off americans are completely absorbed by the american nationalism i would say facism ....every time something happends the only thing they do its to buy american flags, talk about god saves america ( like god its american or something) and join the fucken army, its sick sorry but its sick, and them problaby make tshirts about ...nuken em bush....fuckem up boys....killem all them arabian assholes ....or maibe...I survived the twin tower attack...shit that is soooooooo sad....if thats loving your nation then you are not ment to be a camarada.... use your mind not your TV
la riqueza de unos pocos es un insulto frente a la pobreza de las grandes masas. marcos EZLN
I think the U.S. has found out that they're not the all-powerful, unimpenetratable fortress
Che Guevara wannabe
You hav nothing to appologize for. I don't live in NYC and I feel the same way you feel. Well, the way you FELT.
This has really stirred a feeling of patriotism in me and I make no appologies for it. Patroitism is loving your country and the people in it. This country LETS you be communist and have the set of beliefs that you want to believe. You shouldn't be appologizing for it. PCE, RedCeltic, El Che de Boca/Myrmidon Che- they actions that you applaud..... the people who did it hate you as much as they do me. You're American. They don't care that you are leftists or communists. Their attack was an attack on you as well. As someone stated, Bin Laden is rich beyond belief. It's not an attack on the capitalist system that you all hate. It's an attack on the American people. They think that you are pagans or children of satan. They don't CARE that you are anti-US Gov't. So you you should care.
And M.O.C. in response to your post to me in the thread about why you are communist- I am sorry that you were so let down by something that you so passionately believed in (right wing). I think it started with being "ultra" right wing. Fanatics or people who blindly believe in something like that 100% without actually thinking for themselves usually end up disillusioned, let down and hateful. Don't let it eat you up.
And I think that other nations playing our national anthem was a great compassionate gesture. I am sorry that you were so disgusted by it. The nat'l anthem has never choked me up so I was suprised that hearing them play it at the changing of the guard made me so emotional.
Yeah, I know. I'm getting splinters again from all my fence riding. I need to stick with the Che discussions and stay the hell out of the political discussions because I just don't agree with these horrible opinions.
As there is a fine line between disagree or hate of US there is also a fine line between love for your home and it's people and believing your people can do no wrong, rule the world, and should anialate Afganistan.
I said before that I have always loved being a New Yorker.... and I suppose in a way I could say I love being an American... after all it's part of loving America that makes me a Socialist... for I want to see a better America... if I hated America I'd just move a bit farther north. I just want people to realize that I'm not blindly following my nation's actions... and that not all Americans are fascist scum... I mean I suppose these people thought that all Germans in WWII where Natzis.
I suppose I should get this out of the way also... While I don't believe in war... I do believe that this Taliban and Bin Laden should be brought to justice. I don't think the USA should declare war on Afganistan... but the Taliban. I suppose this goes against my stance against war... but I think there is little choice left but to hunt them down and bring them to justice.
I am not an Anti-American... and resent all this Anti-American talk... however I'm not a patriotic flag waving right wing pro war shit head that walked around with yellow ribbons during the gulf war. This however is a diffrent situation as it makes the world unsafe for anyone to travel. I believe in moving Western Civilization to a more united Leftist communty... however I do not believe in destroying Civilization or government in order to do that. And that is why when WWIII is declared (or whatever we call it) my sympathy will be with the NATO troops. I would always hope this could be resolved without war... but I think it's moved beyond that. Bush is planning something for next week. I just hope it stops at taking out the Taliban and smashing the terrorist organization and somping out it's various cells.
(Edited by RedCeltic at 2:37 pm on Sep. 15, 2001)
In Solidarity,
RC
RedCelitc,
First off, I've read a lot of your posts and I didn't pick up on much more than human grief, which is perfectly understandable.
As for Anti-American, I was opposed to the US's foreign policy before this, and I still am. What was wrong then is still wrong today. I think I posted my views about nationalism here before. I'm against nationalism in all it's guises, for the underlying message is that the people of one country are better than the people of another, and I just don't buy that. It also leads to blind jingoism, a "my country right or wrong" attitude.
I have no love for the Taliban, a brutal and repressive regime that is particular harmful to the lives of women and children.
Milosevic is standing trial, and I would support a trial of the terrorists if they are ever truly found. I fear, though, that more civilians will be killed, only this time not US civilians. I can't support piling body upon body and calling it justice. I just can't.
vox
Economists have provided capitalists with a comforting concept called the "free market." It does not describe any part of reality, at any place or time. It's a mantra conveniently invoked when it is proposed that government do something the faithful don't like, and just as conveniently ignored whenever they want government to do something for them.
yeah, redceltic, i don't think you should be ashamed of being patriotic. being patriotic means loving the country and the people. (after all, the forefathers didn't imagine the foreign policies that the u.s. has. they were rebels and the reason they formed the u.s. was for freedom from imperialism) in my post where i said the attack was not against democracy, (which is what i assume you were refering to) all i ment is that the terrorists were against the u.s.' policies and not freedom, they wanted freedom. i don't think there is anything wrong with waving an american flag if you are a proud american. this doesn't mean you support right wingers or u.s. foreign policy, it just means you respect and love your people and country and as you say, the only reason you are a socialist is because of your love for your country and the potential you see in it. if something like this happened in my country, i'd wear and put up iranian flags as well. this doesn't mean i support the government (i don't), it just means i love my country and its people.
-p.s.- by my last comment, i don't mean that i don't like america and that is why i don't put up american flags. i do like america as you do. it is just that i was born in iran and were you are born is something different.
\"One murder makes a villain...millions a hero. Numbers sanctify, my friend.\" -Charlie Chaplin
I thought patriotism was the love of a country's ideals...
And nationalism was believing that one country is better than another's.
Or something....
Patriotism doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the extreme of it or expecting others to have the same amount of it.
I suppose I'm not clear on what the exact meaning of each is... and I'm equating both as the same.
And as for being sorry... I didn't mean that I did anything wrong... it's just that I'm sorry all I've been doing was expressing greaf. I haven't been myself because of what happened, and I wasn't looking at things objectivly.
As for "Anti-American" I understand people talking about US crimes to humanity in the past, I try to educate myself about the same thing. Just some things said struck a nerve... but I don't take anything personal so it's cool... I haven't been in the mood for confrentation so have been seeming wishy washy.... (at least to myself)
Anyway... as I said I don't sponsor war, and I hope they can put these people down without much of a war. ( Idealistic deaming again I know...) but I will support the Nato troops regardless.
I suppose if being "Patrotic" is as you say than that's what I am... also Vox... what you said about killing more innocent people is right, and I (again Idealisticly) hope they can bring them all to justice. Some people upset me when they say crap like "Kill 3 for every one of our dead" etc... That's annoying... and I hate it when people have to talk like that.
(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:00 pm on Sep. 15, 2001)
In Solidarity,
RC
Well it is sometimes the case that, " Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious as Oscar Wilde is known to have said."
Che Guevara wannabe
