Mongolian Neo-Nazis!

[Queercommie Girl]

Show me where I defended them, asswipe. I was just saying most of them aren't even Nazis. They just have strong hatred of the Chinese and besides, what Viets? there aren't any Viets in Mongolia.

are you so nationalist you immediately assume I'm anti-PRC for speaking the facts?

There are Viets in Mongolia, just not as many as Chinese and Russians. The main beef Mongolian nationalists have are with the Chinese and the Russians, for obvious reasons.

[Queercommie Girl]

Frankly, obviously I'm opposed to any form of neo-Nazism, but Mongolia being a third world and Asian country, their neo-Nazism is not as objectively reactionary as first world Euro-American neo-Nazism.

In fact, even though their perceived reasons for upholding neo-Nazism (to defend their nation against the encroachment of the Chinese and the Russians) might be completely misguided, at least in the abstract sense it is more defensive than European neo-Nazism which literally seeks to wipe out every "non-Aryan" race. Ethnic nationalism is still generally much less reactionary than racial nationalism.

And to be fair, ever since China and Russia turned capitalist, there has indeed been some degree of economic exploitation conducted by both the Russians and the Chinese in Mongolia. Of course, the biggest economic threat facing the Mongolian people, like with many other parts of the third world, comes from Western multi-nationals and the Western nation-states that support them, not Russia or China. But neo-Nazis generally are way too dumb to realise this fact.

[Adi Shankara]

There are Viets in Mongolia, just not as many as Chinese and Russians. The main beef Mongolian nationalists have are with the Chinese and the Russians, for obvious reasons.

which is what I said basically, except that they target Chinese more than Russians for whatever reason. Maybe it's the historical antagonism these two cultures share. I don't know.

but in no way was I defending neo-nazi behavior. I'd love for him to show me where I was.

[Queercommie Girl]

which is what I said basically, except that they target Chinese more than Russians for whatever reason. Maybe it's the historical antagonism these two cultures share. I don't know.

It's not due to fundamental historical reasons, but due to the simple fact that the PRC still rules over Inner Mongolia, which the Mongolian nationalists consider to be a part of their country.

If anything, since Mongolians and Chinese are of the same race, (it's often not easy to tell us apart physically) fundamentally Mongolians should be more anti-Russian than anti-Chinese. But for ethnic nationalists like these Mongolian "neo-Nazis" (objectively not an entirely accurate term for them), contemporary political factors like Inner Mongolia obviously takes far greater precedence than abstract considerations of race. This is a fundamental difference between Asian and Western neo-Nazism. The former is more based on ethnicity, the latter is more based on physical race.

[Adi Shankara]

If anything, since Mongolians and Chinese are of the same race, (it's often not easy to tell us apart physically)

Hold on. Mongolians and Chinese aren't the same race! they are two different ethnicities, with Mongolians being descended from Asiatic and Turkic peoples, and Han Chinese being strictly Asiatic.

some Mongolians even have blond hair.

[Queercommie Girl]

Hold on. Mongolians and Chinese aren't the same race! they are two different ethnicities, with Mongolians being descended from Asiatic and Turkic peoples, and Han Chinese being strictly Asiatic.

some Mongolians even have blond hair.

Have you ever being to Mongolia? Very few Mongols have blonde hair.

And actually a few Han people have blonde hair too. Did you know that? But hair colour doesn't matter as much as facial shape.

Physically Mongolians do look like Chinese. You often cannot tell us apart. See for instance the portrait of Genghis Khan made during the Yuan dynasty. Turks in West Asia today look different even though they originated in Eastern Asia because they mixed heavily with the local Greek-speaking populations after migrating West, but the Mongols still have that original "Asiatic" look.

Therefore the "original" Turks in central and eastern Asia were also "purely Asiatic", like the Chinese and the Mongols, today's Turks in Western Asia only look different due to their mixing with the local Greek-speaking population.

Historically Han Chinese in northern China have mixed quite a bit with Mongols, Manchus and Turks as well. Even Mandarin Chinese, the language of northern China, is significantly influenced by the Altaic languages. Altaic royal families ruled in northern China during more than 50% of the last 1000 years of Chinese history. (Khitan Liao, Jurchen Jin, Mongol Yuan, Manchu Qing)

There is no such thing as "pure Han Chinese". Chances are, since I was from northern China, that I have quite a few Mongolian ancestors in the centuries past.

Physical race and ethnicity aren't the same thing. Germans and English are of the same race but two different ethnicities. Of course Mongols and Chinese aren't physically identical but they are far far closer to each other than say Mongols and Russians.

[Devrim]

OK, but anti semitism is not too uncommon in Turkey and especially after this years recent events I'm sure it has intensified. As a result, active right wing groups in Turkey are going to be even more anti semitic.

Yes, but they are not "neo-nazis" in any reasonable sense of the word.

'Wanted Man' is right. To the extent that anti-Semitism exists in Turkey, it is a product of the situation in Palestine and Turkish nationalism. You never see any 'Nazi imagery' or swastikas.

Anti-Semitism does not mean neo-Nazism though.

I would put it down to most of the Neo-Nazis in Europe are pretty much 'Mickey Mouse' affairs, on the political fringe. This isn't the case in Turkey. It is less than a decade since they were in Government, as part of a coalition, and could well be back in power next time. If we go back a few decades they had about 200,000 members and about a million sympathisers*. Why would they want to wave around Nazi flags when they are a serious party with a real possibility of power?

*This doesn't mean voters. They got 5,000,000 votes in the last election. It means organised sympathisers.

[Leo]

I have never heard of them in Turkey.

They do exist as far as I am aware of, mostly as a sub-culture of the metal music fan sub-culture, something like the satanists.

[Adi Shankara]

Have you ever being to Mongolia? Very few Mongols have blonde hair.

But alas, they still exist.

And actually a few Han people have blonde hair too. Did you know that? But hair colour doesn't matter as much as facial shape.

You know judging racial characteristics based on physical appearance, skull shape etc. has been completely disproves, right?

Physically Mongolians do look like Chinese. You often cannot tell us apart.

You also can't really tell apart Afghanis from Dravidians either, but that doesn't even mean they are close to the same.

See for instance the portrait of Genghis Khan made during the Yuan dynasty. Turks in West Asia today look different even though they originated in Eastern Asia because they mixed heavily with the local Greek-speaking populations after migrating West, but the Mongols still have that original "Asiatic" look.

Mongolians didn't get their looks from that; they were Turkic, not Greek. Greeks are not Turkic.

Therefore the "original" Turks in central and eastern Asia were also "purely Asiatic", like the Chinese and the Mongols, today's Turks in Western Asia only look different due to their mixing with the local Greek-speaking population.

oh boy, I can just tell you're going to piss off some Turks with that statement

Physical race and ethnicity aren't the same thing. Germans and English are of the same race but two different ethnicities. Of course Mongols and Chinese aren't physically identical but they are far far closer to each other than say Mongols and Russians.

Germans and English are probably similar, seeing as they're both Saxon descended, but not Celts and English, Celts even have different genetic variables from other ethnicities in the area. Celts also have certain Haplotypes, and Ashkenaz jews are more suspectible to certain diseases than other Europeans, even if they may look exactly the same.

ethnicity isn't that simple as "they look like it, so they are it".

[Queercommie Girl]

But alas, they still exist.

So? The frequency is so low that it hardly matters at all, since among the Han the frequency of blonde hair isn't much lower.

You know judging racial characteristics based on physical appearance, skull shape etc. has been completely disproves, right?

And judging racial characteristics based on "hair colour" hasn't been?

If anything, skull shape has a much more deeper genetic origin than a purely superficial trait like hair colour?

You also can't really tell apart Afghanis from Dravidians either, but that doesn't even mean they are close to the same.

Afghans are still much closer to Dravidians than they are to say Russians or the Chinese.

Mongolians didn't get their looks from that; they were Turkic, not Greek. Greeks are not Turkic.

What is this "Mongolian look" you talk about? Most Mongols have relatively flat faces and narrow eyes like the Chinese and other Asiatic peoples, not prominent straight noses like Western Turks and Greeks. The portrait of Genghis Khan is clearly Asiatic, not Caucasian.

oh boy, I can just tell you're going to piss off some Turks with that statement

Really? Here is what devrim, who is from Turkey, posted in another thread here on RevLeft:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/radical-fe...65/index3.html

post no. 43:

It is quite rare to meet Turkish people who look 'mongoloid'. I'd say that it is probably less than 1 in a 1,000. Today's Turks are, as genetic surveys have shown, ethnically very similar to the Greeks. This almost certainly means that a relatively small group of conquers from central Asia took over, then mixed with the local population. I would imagine that the Turks you meet who look 'mongoloid' today are the descendants of more recent immigrants.

Germans and English are probably similar, seeing as they're both Saxon descended, but not Celts and English, Celts even have different genetic variables from other ethnicities in the area. Celts also have certain Haplotypes, and Ashkenaz jews are more suspectible to certain diseases than other Europeans, even if they may look exactly the same.

ethnicity isn't that simple as "they look like it, so they are it".

And frankly you are ignorant of Chinese history. I told you already that northern Chinese people ethnically do have a partial Altaic ancestry. Some historians even think the original Han Chinese tribes also originated in northern Asia.

Han and Mongols do essentially share similar genetic markers on the Y chromosome.

[khad]

To all the numbnuts arguing this, ethnicity isn't the same as race. Ethnicity is much more determined by cultural factors.

To suggest that Mongols and Chinese have no genetic link, when the Mongols were a Chinese dynasty at one point, is sheer idiocy. The Northern Chinese gene pool has been shaped over the centuries by successive migrations and conquests--from Mongolia, Korea, and Siberia. It's one of the most diverse in east Asia.

Also, to talk about things like blonde hair is silly. You find such things even in Laos:

You also can't really tell apart Afghanis from Dravidians either, but that doesn't even mean they are close to the same.

Afghans are still much closer to Dravidians than they are to say Russians or the Chinese.

Are you fucking shitting me? How does the average Pastun, Uzbek, or Hazara look like someone from Southern India? Uzbeks and Hazaras in fact have explicitly East Asian phenotypes. Afghans may be one nationality, but not one race or ethnicity.

[Queercommie Girl]

To all the numbnuts arguing this, ethnicity isn't the same as race. Ethnicity is much more determined by cultural factors.

To suggest that Mongols and Chinese have no genetic link, when the Mongols were a fucking Chinese dynasty at one point, is sheer idiocy.

Are you fucking shitting me? How does the average Pastun, Uzbek, or Hazara look like someone from Southern India? Uzbeks and Hazaras in fact have explicitly East Asian phenotypes.

Hazaras are a small minority in Afghanistan derived from Mongol soldiers who settled there. Uzbeks are a mixture of Asiatic nomads and the original Indo-European settled populations of central Asia, thus their mixed Eurasian look. But they are not the main ethnic group in Afghanistan. Most Afghans still look largely caucasian, similar to the Dravidians of southern India.

I was referring to the main ethnic groups in Afghanistan, not ones like the Uzbeks or the Hazaras, which are minority populations.

[Devrim]

They do exist as far as I am aware of, mostly as a sub-culture of the metal music fan sub-culture, something like the satanists.

That is one of the advantages of knowing nothing about 'sub-cultures of the metal music fan sub-culture'. I am not sure that 'Satanists' exist in Turkey outside of the imagination of the media really either.

Devrim

[khad]

I was referring to the main ethnic groups in Afghanistan, not ones like the Uzbeks or the Hazaras, which are minority populations.

You just showed your ignorance. There is no majority ethnic group in Afghanistan. Pashtuns are a third of the population, and so are the Tajiks. Uzbeks and Hazara together are nearly 20% of the Afghan population. A smaller group, Aimaks (4%), also have mixed Persian and Mongolian heritage, though they're often counted as Tajiks in census. Afghanistan has always been a multiethnic agglomeration, so take your Great Han chauvinism elsewhere--ethnicity in Afghanistan isn't just something you play dress up with on festival day.

They have more of a right to be recognized as a face of Afghanistan than you as a Chinese living in the UK or France or wherever in Western Europe.

[Devrim]

You also can't really tell apart Afghanis from Dravidians either, but that doesn't even mean they are close to the same.

Afghan kids



Sri Lankan Cricket player

Devrim

[Devrim]

oh boy, I can just tell you're going to piss off some Turks with that statement

Really? Here is what devrim, who is from Turkey, posted in another thread here on RevLeft:

post no. 43:

It is quite rare to meet Turkish people who look 'mongoloid'. I'd say that it is probably less than 1 in a 1,000. Today's Turks are, as genetic surveys have shown, ethnically very similar to the Greeks. This almost certainly means that a relatively small group of conquers from central Asia took over, then mixed with the local population. I would imagine that the Turks you meet who look 'mongoloid' today are the descendants of more recent immigrants.

I am not Turkish though I do live here. It does annoy some nationalists though I don't think that we should temper discussions of scientific fact to avoid upsetting nationalists.

Devrim

[Queercommie Girl]

You just showed your ignorance. There is no majority ethnic group in Afghanistan. Pashtuns are a third of the population, and so are the Tajiks. Uzbeks and Hazara together are nearly 20% of the Afghan population. A smaller group, Aimaks (4%), also have mixed Persian and Mongolian heritage, though they're often counted as Tajiks in census. Afghanistan has always been a multiethnic agglomeration, so take your Great Han chauvinism elsewhere--ethnicity in Afghanistan isn't just something you play dress up with on festival day.

They have more of a right to be recognized as a face of Afghanistan than you as a Chinese living in the UK or France or wherever in Western Europe.

I said main groups (plural), not main group (singular). My point is simply that the majority of Afghans are still largely caucasian-looking, nothing more.

I don't see what your point about my alleged "great han chauvinism" is about at all, since that is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. And frankly you don't know enough about me to accuse me for being a "Han chauvinist". Care to provide any concrete evidence showing that I am a "Han chauvinist"?

And what do you mean "ethnicity in Afghanistan isn't just something you play dress up with on festival day"? Is that what you think ethnicity in China is like? You are indeed bordering on racism here, not to mention it's completely off-topic.

And I never said that ethnic Chinese people living in the UK should become the "face" of the UK either.

How can I be a "Han chauvinist" when I've actually said that there might actually be a bit of an objective justification for the Mongolian nationalists' attitudes, partly based on the exploitation of Mongolia by a now capitalist China?

[Queercommie Girl]

Afghan kids



Sri Lankan Cricket player

Devrim

Nevertheless, both still look largely caucasian. And most of the Afghans in the first photo certainly looks nothing like East Asians.

[Pavlov's House Party]

These aren't "neo-Nazis", they are racists and nationalists who have adopted some Nazi symbols. There is a big difference between some ignorant racist and a fascist.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Hold on. Mongolians and Chinese aren't the same race! they are two different ethnicities, with Mongolians being descended from Asiatic and Turkic peoples, and Han Chinese being strictly Asiatic.

some Mongolians even have blond hair.

You may be referring to the Uyghur people concentrated in Sinjiang and possibly the Uzbek people in western China, Afghanistan, and Uzbekistan. The Uyghurs are Turkic speaking with East Asian and European traits mixed in.They probably absorbed the Tocharians, an Indo-European group, at some time.Some Uyghurs look Chinese or Mongolian, some look European.

My understanding is that the term "Turkic" is more linguistic than anything else.
Also Mongolians generally are shorter and stockier than most Han people, I think.