anti-fascism ?? or just anti-overtly-racist-thugism?

[scarletghoul]

It seems like the 'anti-fascist' movement is just focussed on fighting racist\ultranationalist/neonazi thugs. While this is of course a noble cause, I think it is a problem when people see these groups as the definition and embodiment of the Fascist movement. The fact is, Fascism goes beyond these groups and racist thuggery. It has an economic base, etc etc. The definition of Fascism is highly disputed it seems, but hopefully we could all at least agree that it's more than an ideal; it's a socio-economic phenomenon. This is the scientific approach, and it follows from this that Fascism isn't just limited to one idealist manifestation (ie, ultranationalist hooliganss shouting heil hitler). Fascism manifests itself in a variety of forms -

The Tea Party is clearly a fascist (or protofascist?) movement, and there are other fascist forces at work in the US too. Some definitions consider the US a fascist country.. I dont agree with that but I think certainly there are big fascistic elements which have rising power. The State of Israel is obviously fascist. Look at what the Greek government does, the way it treats immigrants, breaking up strikes with the Army, extreme police oppression etc, this could easily be described as fascist. These are just a few obvious examples of Fascism that exists outside the standard Antifascist paradigm.

In short, I think the "anti-fascist" movement is too focussed on the obvious overtly racist Nazi organisations and misses the wider picture, which includes manifestations of fascism in government power. This approach is essentially idealist; in the interests of the proletarian revolution we should rather adopt a dialectical materialist approach which means combating Fascism in all of its forms.

(This is not a criticism of the good work being done against racists btw, but rather an attempt to clarify the need to combat the general phenomenon of fascism, of which these nazi type groups are only a part.)

[Ravachol]

It seems like the 'anti-fascist' movement is just focussed on fighting racist\ultranationalist/neonazi thugs.

You speak about the 'anti-fascist' movement like it's some kind of homogenous group or whatever. It's not.

While this is of course a noble cause, I think it is a problem when people see these groups as the definition and embodiment of the Fascist movement. The fact is, Fascism goes beyond these groups and racist thuggery.
It has an economic base, etc etc. The definition of Fascism is highly disputed it seems, but hopefully we could all at least agree that it's more than an ideal; it's a socio-economic phenomenon.

A lot of antifascist groups (at least here in mainland Europe) have broad campaign agenda ranging from anti-nationalist events to 'sans papiers' solidarity demonstrations to anti-capitalist and anti-repression demos and actions. Just take a look at the German antifascist movement which is basically the largest banner under which a lot of the radical left unites and under which banner a lot of broad actions are organised.

Some definitions consider the US a fascist country..

Haha... oh wow. Really the overusage of the word 'fascist' against anything militarist, authoritarian, etc. has just devaluated the word.

The State of Israel is obviously fascist.

Imperialist? Yes. State Racist? Yes. Authoritarian? Yes. Fascist? No.

Look at what the Greek government does, the way it treats immigrants, breaking up strikes with the Army, extreme police oppression etc, this could easily be described as fascist.

No it cannot, it's just plain old bourgeois state behavior. Describing it as fascist just hides the fact that this is how normal bourgeois states behave. Exclusive nationalism is an almost integral part of the nation-state, the army (as the armed wing of the state) is inherently a reactionary organ and so is the police, I don't think anyone here ought to be surprised they side by the bourgeoisie.

In short, I think the "anti-fascist" movement is too focussed on the obvious overtly racist Nazi organisations and misses the wider picture, which includes manifestations of fascism in government power. This approach is essentially idealist;

No it's not idealist. Almost all antifascist groups have an overtly radical leftist character and see Antifascism as part of the wider Anticapitalist struggle and fascism as arising from conditions created under Capitalism.

in the interests of the proletarian revolution we should rather adopt a dialectical materialist approach which means combating Fascism in all of its forms.

I'd rather not....

[Jimmie Higgins]

I guess it depends on how you define fascism and I generally see it as an organized vigilante group with the aim of defending inequality and oppression. So the PATRIOT ACT while vile and racist isn't fascist just because it is done "legally" through the normal bourgoise state. A fascist version of that would be you'd have the Act and then you also have vigilante groups who take it upon themselves to detain muslems and attack "pro-terrorist" mosques in the name of defending the country while the courts and police help or look the other way. Or if the US government deputized the Minutmen and allowed them to do what they saw necissary to "defend our borders".

So there are some things with Israel that are quazi-fascist like giving settlers a blank-check to burn Palestinian crops and beat up Arab youth who get too close to the illegal settlements.

But on the whole I don't think Israel is fascist (yet)... or even that the tea-party is necessarily fascist. The KKK are and the Minutemen are fascist and proto-fascist respectively IMO. And so the role that these fascist play in non-fascist societies is to defend and enforce social (often racist) and economic inequality in society. So the minutemen go down to the border and try and terorize people, neo-nazis go to cities and hold rallies in order to tell the "mud-people" that their time is coming to an end. Because this is the role they normally play, I think it is totally appropriate tactics to show up at their public events and denounce them and try and stop them so that oppressed groups and workers are not intimidated.

I do think that fascists are recruiting from tea-parties and using them as cover (obviously the neo-nazis patrolling the Arizona border are a clear example of this strategy) and that sections of the tea-parties could become fascist groups. So it's kind of a gray area for them and I think we should counter-protest them too.