Origins of Israel

[freepalestine]

Well there is the archeology and the religious texts.

The book of Genesis ends with the story of Jacob going down to Egypt with his family. The first chapter of Exodus tells how the seventy members of Jacob's clan evolved into a large people, cruelly enslaved by the kings of Egypt. The enslavement is presented in the Bible as a crucible which forged the nation of Israel. Oppressed for several centuries, the Hebrews suffered until Moses, of the tribe of Levi, brought up Pharaoh's household, led them to freedom in the name of God, an omnipotent deity unknown to the Hebrews prior to their liberation.

Then the story is presented in Exodus involving the ten plagues of Egypt, drowned Pharaoh's army in the red sea and the revelations on Mount Sinai (Gods commandments). The first commandment is the essence of Jewish monotheism: "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" (Exodus, 20:2-3). But the historical validity is controversial. Some scholars stress the lack of Egyptian evidence testifying to the enslavement of the Israelites. Other scholars, however, claim that it is highly improbable that a nation would choose to invent itself a history of slavery as an explanation of its origins.

Obviously the Orthodox tradition accepts the biblical account literally. There are scholars who seek to explain the miraculous events in rational and natural terms. For example, they refer to an ancient Egyptian text containing the stories of Ipu-wer, recounting a series of disasters which befell Egypt - floods, drought, slave, rebellions and invasions.

well there we have it ,the zionist perspective on palestine.did someone mention the proselytizing in europe etc of judaism.and weren't the palestinians desendents judeans etc?
as for using the bible as a historical record,then god help us!

[Bud Struggle]

There is of course nothing wrong with taking data from the Bible as historical truth. Just because it is in the Bible doesn't mean it is false.

The problem is that none of this really matters. People(s) have moved into areas and out of areas all through history. The Jews are in Israel now--most Jews in Israel have been born there--they have as much right to be there as Mexicans do in the US or Normans do in England.

The problem is that of "being there." It is one of control. The Israelis need to open the country up to all people as equal citizens. Also land/property that was taken from Moslems should be either paid for or returned.

Moslems shouldn't be treated any different than Jews. For that matter the ethnic origins or religious beliefs of anyone in Israel/Palestine should be of no public interest or concern.

[freepalestine]

There is of course nothing wrong with taking data from the Bible as historical truth. Just because it is in th+e Bible doesn't mean it is false.

...apart from that sentence making no sense,the bible is not a historical scientific record of palestine,or anywhere

The problem is that none of this really matters. People(s) have moved into areas and out of areas all through history. The Jews are in Israel now--most Jews in Israel have been born there--they have as much right to be there as Mexicans do in the US or Normans do in England.

The problem is that of "being there." It is one of control. The Israelis need to open the country up to all people as equal citizens. Also land/property that was taken from Moslems should be either paid for or returned.

Moslems shouldn't be treated any different than Jews. For that matter the ethnic origins or religious beliefs of anyone in Israel/Palestine should be of no public interest or concern.

muslims?you ought to say palestinians or even ayrabs.

[graffic]

The problem is that of "being there." It is one of control. The Israelis need to open the country up to all people as equal citizens. Also land/property that was taken from Moslems should be either paid for or returned.

Moslems shouldn't be treated any different than Jews. For that matter the ethnic origins or religious beliefs of anyone in Israel/Palestine should be of no public interest or concern.

Although religious institutions were officially recognised by the state, religion as a value system had only a minor influence on the culture of the new Jewish society in Palestine. The pious leaders in the Arab world rejected any solution other than an Arab Palestine. Even the most right-wing Zionists, many of whom were holocaust survivors, wanted Arabs to have equal status in a Jewish state.

The wars since 1948 stem from this disagreement between Arabs and Jews. The pious rhetoric of Hamas, Hizbullah and other Muslim enemies of Israel , and other factors, show why Zionism is a better alternative than a Jewish minority in an Arab state. But the Muslims can't accept a Jewish state that treats Arabs as equals because it jarrs with religious beliefs, which I can emphasise with.

[freepalestine]

Although religious institutions were officially recognised by the state, religion as a value system had only a minor influence on the culture of the new Jewish society in Palestine. The pious leaders in the Arab world rejected any solution other than an Arab Palestine. Even the most right-wing Zionists, many of whom were holocaust survivors, wanted Arabs to have equal status in a Jewish state.

The wars since 1948 stem from this disagreement between Arabs and Jews. The pious rhetoric of Hamas, Hizbullah and other Muslim enemies of Israel , and other factors, show why Zionism is a better alternative than a Jewish minority in an Arab state. But the Muslims can't accept a Jewish state that treats Arabs as equals because it jarrs with religious beliefs, which I can emphasise with.

apart from some of that being false,and you not eager to answer my posts(not just today)why don't you say what you really mean ?it's amazing that both the username bud struggle and grafic (etc)often appear at the same time.and both are basically not very leftist and pro -isreal.

[Bud Struggle]

...apart from that sentence making no sense,the bible is not a historical scientific record of palestine,or anywheremuslims?you ought to say palestinians or even ayrabs.

IT DOESN'T MATTER! the Jews are there now they live there NOW. Nothing else matters.

[empiredestoryer]

the state of israel was created by people with very very posh english accents just like america and austalia was

[freepalestine]

IT DOESN'T MATTER! the Jews are there now they live there NOW. Nothing else matters.

the palestinians will be coming back to palestine also.that matters, ok.
-bs why do you come on a leftwing website spouting nonsense all the time?

[Bud Struggle]

the palestinians will be coming back to palestine also.that matters, ok.
-bs why do you come on a leftwing website spouting nonsense all the time?

Who cares what religion or ethnic group people are from? Anyone can live anywhere they like. What is the problem with that?

Leftwing doesn't mean pro-Palestinian. It means pro-human being.

[#FF0000]

Although religious institutions were officially recognised by the state, religion as a value system had only a minor influence on the culture of the new Jewish society in Palestine. The pious leaders in the Arab world rejected any solution other than an Arab Palestine. Even the most right-wing Zionists, many of whom were holocaust survivors, wanted Arabs to have equal status in a Jewish state.

The wars since 1948 stem from this disagreement between Arabs and Jews. The pious rhetoric of Hamas, Hizbullah and other Muslim enemies of Israel , and other factors, show why Zionism is a better alternative than a Jewish minority in an Arab state. But the Muslims can't accept a Jewish state that treats Arabs as equals because it jarrs with religious beliefs, which I can emphasise with.

It's kind of funny how wrong you are. Muslims or Arabs in Israel were never treated well, and when there were protests about it, the British generally responded with machine gun fire.

And Jews, historically, have been pretty comfortable living in Muslim lands. That was, at least, up until western imperialists helped to build the movement we now know as "radical islam", which has only existed for about, oh, 50, 60 years?

EDIT:
Thread Cleaned and Fix'd. Carry on

[graffic]

Re Jews living in Muslim lands: Jews had lived in Arabia since very ancient times. In the fifth century they were concentrated mostly in two regions: Himyar in the south and Hijaz in the north. They lived peacefully alongside Arab tribes who had become the predominant population in the peninsula shortly before the birth of Mohammed.

To the people of Mecca, Muhammed spoke of his revelation concerning the last day of judgement, of the necessity for man to be humble and grateful to the Merciful one and to worship him alone, and of the obligation of generosity to the poor and the defenseless. He insisted that the children of Israel could testify to the authenticity of this message. When the people of Mecca rejected Muhammed, he left town and migrated to Medina where he thought he would find a more receptive attitude to his gospel. He was particularly confident that three Jewish tribes would be the first to support him, however he was bitterly disappointed. The Jews of Medina unanimously rejected the prophet. Muhammed therefore reversed his policy, the direction of the Muslim prayer- from Jerusalem to Mecca signified that he had abandoned all attempts to win over the Jews.

By June 628, Muhammed had conquered the oasis. The Jews were allowed to remain there but had to pay heavy taxes. All religions previously existing in the Arabian Peninsula thus became minorities under the rule of Islam. The Muslim conquest was destined to shape the character of the entire Middle East for the following thirteen centuries.

Zionists believed that only in a land of their own would they accomplish the full, essentially secular, revival of Jewish culture and of the Hebrew language. Ottoman opposition hobbled the movement almost fatally in its early years; and the violent opposition mounted by Arab states and peoples has to this day shaped the physical and political landscape in which Zionism has implemented its ideals.

[Dean]

By June 628, Muhammed had conquered the oasis. The Jews were allowed to remain there but had to pay heavy taxes. All religions previously existing in the Arabian Peninsula thus became minorities under the rule of Islam. The Muslim conquest was destined to shape the character of the entire Middle East for the following thirteen centuries.

Zionists believed that only in a land of their own would they accomplish the full, essentially secular, revival of Jewish culture and of the Hebrew language. Ottoman opposition hobbled the movement almost fatally in its early years; and the violent opposition mounted by Arab states and peoples has to this day shaped the physical and political landscape in which Zionism has implemented its ideals.

Looks like you have that worthless Hitchens creep in your avatar. I was pleased to hear of his terminal cancer.

On the point above: you're still stuck in a childish, ethno-centric view of historical development which specifically blames cultural tendencies, rather than specific power structures, for the activities of the latter. Unsurprising because it is the only way you can even start to blame the Israel-Pal conflict on Muslims in general (and your argument is incredibly shallow and culminates in a generalized culturalist bigotry). Shame on you.

[graffic]

Thanks for that comment. That's sad you are pleased to hear someone has cancer just because of their opinions

[Dean]

Thanks for that comment. That's sad you are pleased to hear someone has cancer just because of their opinions

What makes it sad?

[graffic]

Wishing terminal cancer on anyone is sad

[Dean]

Wishing terminal cancer on anyone is sad

As always, you offer profound contributions to the issues at hand. +1

[graffic]

You need to just calm down and chill out. This is the OI forum, if you don't like opposing ideologies don't waste posts in it being an immature asshole. Since you are higher up in the online revleft oligarchy you can perhaps ban me or attempt to get me banned. It wouldn't be a bad idea, it would be a bit like being kicked out of a really shit nightclub, bad atmosphere and shit company

[freepalestine]

... On the point above: you're still stuck in a childish, ethno-centric view of historical development which specifically blames cultural tendencies, rather than specific power structures, for the activities of the latter. Unsurprising because it is the only way you can even start to blame the Israel-Palestinian conflict on..

hes a zionist,what would we expect from rightwing/racists

[freepalestine]

... Since you are higher up in the online revleft oligarchy you can perhaps ban me or attempt to get me banned. It wouldn't be a bad idea, it would be a bit like being kicked out of a really shit nightclub, bad atmosphere and shit company

its funny you say that!if you were honest grafic,and said what you really mean,they maybe you could get kicked off the forum.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Can somebody explain to me, in a nutshell:
- How was Israel created?
- Why do Western governments support Israel?
- Why does the left oppose Israel?

Plain statements of fact please, no 'because they are bourgeois imperialist scum'. Cheers.

I've read all 3 pages of this thread, and have yet to see a meaningful, in-depth response to this - or at the very least, a link or reference to some place that does.

Frankly, I don't see the point in arguing whether or not Judaism is an ethnicity or not.......but

For a long time, I've been searching for the answers to questions 1 and 3 (2 is a little obvious....) But unfortunately, any reference on the Palestine-Israel dilemma that I've looked into argues:

Flotilla Riding, Hamas-Sympathizing, leftist: "The Jews just forcefully took the Arabs land and then started killing and enslaving them."
Batshit Crazy, Christian Fundamentalist: "The Jews were there peacefully, and then the crazy Arabs attacked them because of their terrorist religion."

Somehow, I think the truth lays somewhere between those two points of view, but I've yet to see it vocalized.