EDL claims they are coming to amsterdam, want to come too?

[Red Lunatic]

Wilders hasn't got support from a nazi-group in the Netherlands so far, because he supports Israel and zionism as much as he can. He is a big friend of some Israelian ministers and some rumours say that he has been a Mossad-spion. If EDL is really coming to Amsterdam to support, they're the first nazi-group supporting him. Wonder what's gonna happen.

[DreamWeaver]

As much as I love giving some boneheads a good kicking, I suggest not attacking them at the start of their march. Let them be portrayed in the media, thus connecting Wilders to traditional nazis. Wilders' stance on Israel has prevented traditional boneheads from sympathising with his party and he does not want to be ascosciated with them. It will pull down the mask of clean rightwing politics and show Wilders for what he is: just another fascist.

After all of that I expect the F-side and Amsterdams legion of antifascists to give 'm a warm welcome.. (see ya there)

[Wred]

I think the EDL is a group made up of the misguided working class. Their rising popularity is due the feeling that the working class have been forgotten. They just want to let off steam and show their frustration at the state, unfortunately, the left need to get them on our side show them that this frustration could be used in much more productive ways. We must compete for their frustration. I wish I could get over there, but I don't have the time nor the money.

[Smokin']

Indeed. Most of the EDL's frustration is down to the lack of opportunities and they are fighting against it. Their opposition differs from ours but it's the same anger and frustration.

Most of it is just anti-Islam, which is partly justified. As wrong as they are, so are the Muslims who march against them. Fuck them all.

As for marching with the left, what's the point? I'm not going to Amsterdam to march against them. To hold up a sign and shout "You're wrong!" for 30 minutes. It's pointless and serves absolutely no purpose. The only result is losing a couple of hundred quid to stand in the cold and have people call me a "soft, pacifist c*nt".

Apart from all that, any opposition marches play into their hands.

So, yeah...there's no reason for this at all.

[The Douche]

I you don't want to be a "soft, pacifist ****", then don't be one...

[No pasarán]

Wilders hasn't got support from a nazi-group in the Netherlands so far, because he supports Israel and zionism as much as he can. He is a big friend of some Israelian ministers and some rumours say that he has been a Mossad-spion. If EDL is really coming to Amsterdam to support, they're the first nazi-group supporting him. Wonder what's gonna happen.

The EDL are not Nazis.. fuck me, how often does that have to be repeated... They are Nationalists, patriots, loyalists- xenophobic bigots, but not nazis. I don't think they put much depth into their political thought and probably wouldn't realise a lot of their racisim, just see it as being 'patriotic'. They are supposedly 'pro israel' as well. They've certainly been known to fly israeli flags and are fans of Wilders.

[Ravachol]

Wilders hasn't got support from a nazi-group in the Netherlands so far, because he supports Israel and zionism as much as he can. He is a big friend of some Israelian ministers and some rumours say that he has been a Mossad-spion. If EDL is really coming to Amsterdam to support, they're the first nazi-group supporting him. Wonder what's gonna happen.

The EDL isn't a nazi group. They're mainly national-conservatives with a strong focus on "British Identity" and it's external and internal enemies (Islam, Irish Republicanism, Leftism,etc.). Even though a lot of their members are open and out or closet nazis the bulk of the EDL isn't. Whether they are actually 'fascist' or not is disputable (though a lot of their positions and behavior tends to a modern version of fascism they are pretty heterogenous) but they are most certainly far-right. As for the far-right in the Netherlands not supporting Wilders, most of the organised groups (NVU,NSA,B&H,C18) don't but individual members and a lot of folks within Voorpost do. There are even plenty of folks within Blood&Honour Traditional who don't consider Wilders all that bad.

As much as I love giving some boneheads a good kicking, I suggest not attacking them at the start of their march. Let them be portrayed in the media, thus connecting Wilders to traditional nazis. Wilders' stance on Israel has prevented traditional boneheads from sympathising with his party and he does not want to be ascosciated with them. It will pull down the mask of clean rightwing politics and show Wilders for what he is: just another fascist.

After all of that I expect the F-side and Amsterdams legion of antifascists to give 'm a warm welcome.. (see ya there)

I don't think it's particularly wise to discuss tactics on an open forum, can a mod perhaps fix this? Other than that, I agree

[Smokin']

I you don't want to be a "soft, pacifist ****", then don't be one...

I was at the EDL march in my home town and I did think of it. I thought of how easy it would be to do it and, probably, get away with it. I just don't think it's a worthy enough cause. The people I'd be against, are people from the same working class background as me and even if I do disagree, they're people I intend to help. I don't think they're evil or even nessecarily bad people, they just have their priorities in the wrong place. If any of us had been introduced to the same atmopshere as them, maybe our frustration would also be to march?

I just don't feel that anger towards them. They're as beaten down and trodden on, more than the average member on here. I think they're ignorant but that isn't ready to be anything more than a pacifist.

There are causes I think are worth it but this isn't it.

If they are allowed to march and there is nobody to protest, they'll soon willingly stop. The more anger forwarded at them, the more passion the current members will feel and the more interest they'll get from non-members. It's counter productive, like most violence in first world countries.

[Steve_j]

If they are allowed to march and there is nobody to protest, they'll soon willingly stop.

Try telling the local muslim communities to ignore 2000 drunk biggots who want to march through their community with a message of contempt purpose of intimidation.

So you propose the left stays home, leave a bunch of already alienated angy muslim youth alone to defend their community, and when shit kicks off let the press get their sensationalist race riot stories? Doesnt sound like a plan to me.

[Ravachol]

If they are allowed to march and there is nobody to protest, they'll soon willingly stop.

Ignoring a disease never makes it go away...

[Smokin']

Try telling the local muslim communities to ignore 2000 drunk biggots who want to march through their community with a message of contempt purpose of intimidation.

So you propose the left stays home, leave a bunch of already alienated angy muslim youth alone to defend their community, and when shit kicks off let the press get their sensationalist race riot stories? Doesnt sound like a plan to me.

If they feel alienated, then that's their own fault because they choose to stay inside their own communities. Like you said, it's "their community" so it's their fault if they feel isolated.

And I don't think they should retaliate either. My point was concerning the left and the Muslims, seeing as they unite as one whenever the UAF turn up. do you think the EDL would march through the communities if they weren't going to get a reaction? Maybe some would change their minds instead?

Any reaction is pouring petrol in the fire. It's as simple as that. There are two choices: They should either not react at all or go all out. The left, including the Muslims, fall into the middle of that, which is why the EDL is growing in popularity.

[Smokin']

Ignoring a disease never makes it go away...

Not straight away but if the EDL was ignored constantly for months, their supporters would just stop turning up. The vast majority aren't loyal to the cause and when the party stops growing, they'd splinter off into smaller groups, which is ideal, because it will eventually wither out and die. That splintering will perpetually happen with these groups, just like it will on the left, and we should let it. By reacting, we make these groups grow and they have a much greater affect.

Same as the BNP. When they went on Question Time, they recieved so much underserved media attention and they got exactly what they wanted. More people knew about them and, yes, they had more detractors, but crucially, they also had a massive surge of supporters. Had they gone on the show without any media attention, they wouldn't have had that exposure and many people wouldn't have started to follow them. You ask Nick Griffin if he could take away all the negative press and he'd tell you "never". Negative press is what the BNP thrive on. it makes them feel like the victims and adds to their opinion that the white, working class is persecuted against in this country. For every inch of hatred in the media, Griffin has another line about how people are out to get him for telling the truth. It's playing into his hands.

When people react, they solidify their moral crusade. They are giving them the approval and respect they want. Ignore them, treat them like they deserve to be treated and within a year, the EDL will not make any news headlines.

[Steve_j]

If they feel alienated, then that's their own fault because they choose to stay inside their own communities.

Yes but the racism and bigotry doesnt help get them out of it in any way shape or form, its a bit rough to go shitting on the victim.

do you think the EDL would march through the communities if they weren't going to get a reaction? Maybe some would change their minds instead?

Maybe but on the flip side of the coin, if we all turned up and gave them a good fucking kicking im sure all of them would stay at home soon enough.

Any reaction is pouring petrol in the fire. It's as simple as that. There are two choices: They should either not react at all or go all out. The left, including the Muslims, fall into the middle of that, which is why the EDL is growing in popularity.

I dont think any leftist should be encouraging people to ignore racism and bigotry (especially the victims of it). So whilst we have the two options, i favour confrontation.

[Ravachol]

Not straight away but if the EDL was ignored constantly for months, their supporters would just stop turning up. The vast majority aren't loyal to the cause and when the party stops growing,

What party?

they'd splinter off into smaller groups, which is ideal, because it will eventually wither out and die.

You base this prophetic knowledge on what evidence?

By reacting, we make these groups grow and they have a much greater affect.

Why would they grow? Being constantly opposed, harrassed and knowing you can't walk down the street in full EDL gear without expecting a good arse kicking coming your way is pretty demotivating I can tell you. Confrontation isn't simply a matter of physical opposition but of a broader campaign undercutting the conditions which make the EDL grow. Simply ignoring them isn't going to remove those conditions and isn't going to prevent the EDL from raising hell.

Same as the BNP. When they went on Question Time, they recieved so much underserved media attention and they got exactly what they wanted.

They'll get all the media attention they want anyway by virtue of their statements and positions. Obviously tactical intervention is a necessity as opposed to simple-minded 'bash the fash' adventures but ruling out any form of intervention is just going to give them the full political arena to participate in, with all possible consequences.

Had they gone on the show without any media attention, they wouldn't have had that exposure and many people wouldn't have started to follow them. You ask Nick Griffin if he could take away all the negative press and he'd tell you "never". Negative press is what the BNP thrive on. it makes them feel like the victims and adds to their opinion that the white, working class is persecuted against in this country. For every inch of hatred in the media, Griffin has another line about how people are out to get him for telling the truth. It's playing into his hands.

When people react, they solidify their moral crusade. They are giving them the approval and respect they want. Ignore them, treat them like they deserve to be treated and within a year, the EDL will not make any news headlines.

Ignoring them isn't going to take away that feeling. In the Netherlands, Wilders and the PVV are hardly attacked in the media anymore out of fear of 'playing into his hands', yet this hasn't prevented him and the media supportive of him from portraying him as a persecuted underdog crusader. Absence of opposition gives one a feeling of invincibility and hands the offensive to the far-right allowing them to control the political arena on their own terms.

[Smokin']

Yes but the racism and bigotry doesnt help get them out of it in any way shape or form, its a bit rough to go shitting on the victim.

It's a Catch 22 then. The EDL aren't marching against Indians, Jews or, more generally, black people. In fact, people from these three backgrounds have all marched with the EDL. The EDL are marching against these people who choose not to integrate and want to live their own way.

Maybe but on the flip side of the coin, if we all turned up and gave them a good fucking kicking im sure all of them would stay at home soon enough.

Working class, white men will never, ever take a beating and back down. That's just not the way it works. Not against the enemy. Any violence will only ever strengthen their opinions and make them even angrier. Do we want them to start petrol bombing Mosques in retaliation? Because they will if it escalates.

I dont think any leftist should be encouraging people to ignore racism and bigotry (especially the victims of it). So whilst we have the two options, i favour confrontation.

I don't encourage racism, obviously. However, I realise that confrontation never has and never will be the answer. If we want to eradicate it, then ignoring them is the most effective way to do it.

I'm not a pacifist either. I do believe in confrontation but the enemy has to be chosen correctly. Taking the opposition, the general public, the left and the future into account, leads me to think that any confrontation now, will only have a negative effect in the future. It will weaken our cause and strengthen theirs.

They will respond to violence just like Al-Qaeda do and that isn't in our interests, if we want to stop facism.

[Smokin']

What party?

I meant that as a group of people, rather than any political party.

You base this prophetic knowledge on what evidence?

On history. That is what always happens to fiercely far right or far left groups, when the cause starts to lose momentum. Many of the people involved are hangers on who lack the passion for the cause. When they start to lose interest it causes friction at the top and that then leads to splits in the group, because people always have an opinion that they can do more and want to run it their way.

It's happening right now in the BNP. Now they are being ignored, the most senior people are backstabbing and plotting.

Why would they grow? Being constantly opposed, harrassed and knowing you can't walk down the street in full EDL gear without expecting a good arse kicking coming your way is pretty demotivating I can tell you. Confrontation isn't simply a matter of physical opposition but of a broader campaign undercutting the conditions which make the EDL grow. Simply ignoring them isn't going to remove those conditions and isn't going to prevent the EDL from raising hell.

That's just unrealistic though. That sort of reaction would never happen, if only for the fact that we don't know who the EDL members are. The only time confrontation can happen is at their marches.

Apart from that, it shouldn't be a given that the left would actually win either. The reason they're marching now and the majority of us aren't, is because they're more loyal to their cause, than we are of ours. They have a strong following who follow them around the nation. The left doesn't have that and if any violence did happen, it would be more likely that they'd win, because they have greater numbers and a true pack mentality. The biggest opposition to the EDL comes from local Muslim groups, who will not travel for their cause.

They'll get all the media attention they want anyway by virtue of their statements and positions. Obviously tactical intervention is a necessity as opposed to simple-minded 'bash the fash' adventures but ruling out any form of intervention is just going to give them the full political arena to participate in, with all possible consequences.

I don't believe the media should cover them at all. If the BBC, ITV, Channel 4,Sky etc., and all the major broadsheets and tabloids didn't mention them at all, that would be the biggest blow to their cause imaginable.

The media are to blame with a lot of racism, purely because it sells stories. People aren't born racist and if they completely ignored it as a whole, it would start to die out. By mentioning racism, even when greatly condemning it, they are making it grow.

Ignoring them isn't going to take away that feeling. In the Netherlands, Wilders and the PVV are hardly attacked in the media anymore out of fear of 'playing into his hands', yet this hasn't prevented him and the media supportive of him from portraying him as a persecuted underdog crusader. Absence of opposition gives one a feeling of invincibility and hands the offensive to the far-right allowing them to control the political arena on their own terms.

That doesn't suprise me at all. That's a nessecary stage of the process. That will soon stop though, because they can't fabricate stories forever.

I don't believe a lack of opposition does make them feel invincible. It makes them feel unnoticed, which is exactly what we should want. If the media spotlight is taken off them, they won't continue.

[Ravachol]

On history. That is what always happens to fiercely far right or far left groups, when the cause starts to lose momentum. Many of the people involved are hangers on who lack the passion for the cause. When they start to lose interest it causes friction at the top and that then leads to splits in the group, because people always have an opinion that they can do more and want to run it their way.

Utter nonsense. There are plenty of historical examples where 'ignoring' the fascist threat has lead to a growth in momentum, if only for the fact that fascism doesn't grow because it is opposed, it has other causes.

That's just unrealistic though. That sort of reaction would never happen, if only for the fact that we don't know who the EDL members are. The only time confrontation can happen is at their marches.

You base this claim on what? 'Confrontation', as I said, is not merely physical confrontation but the development of a class-based alternative undercutting the conditions that make fascism grow as well.

Apart from that, it shouldn't be a given that the left would actually win either. The reason they're marching now and the majority of us aren't, is because they're more loyal to their cause, than we are of ours.

Not only is that an insult to active antifascists, it's nonsense as well. A lot of EDL members wouldn't dare (or want to) venture outside of designated demo zones where they are protected by more hardcore, hooligan-based elements.

They have a strong following who follow them around the nation. The left doesn't have that and if any violence did happen, it would be more likely that they'd win, because they have greater numbers and a true pack mentality.

Again, I'm not talking about single-minded 'bash the fash' tactics, as I've stated before.

I don't believe the media should cover them at all. If the BBC, ITV, Channel 4,Sky etc., and all the major broadsheets and tabloids didn't mention them at all, that would be the biggest blow to their cause imaginable.

Yeah, 'cause that's realistic! Of course the media are going to cover them, 'cause confrontation is BOUND to happen with the EDL marching through muslim and foreign neighbourhoods.

People aren't born racist and if they completely ignored it as a whole, it would start to die out. By mentioning racism, even when greatly condemning it, they are making it grow.

Biggest load o' nonsense I've heard in months. By avoiding to speak of racism, it doesn't go away AT ALL. There is no proof of this whatsoever and it doesn't even make any sense as a mere claim. Racism has objective social causes and results, both need to be confronted and taken care of. Believing things go away by ignoring them is merely an execuse for those not wishing to take care of business who don't want to feel guilty about it. The EDL didn't originate because they were 'persecuted' (which is rather hard when a movement doesn't exist yet).

That doesn't suprise me at all. That's a nessecary stage of the process. That will soon stop though, because they can't fabricate stories forever.

Yeah, right... Keep on dreamin' lad.

I don't believe a lack of opposition does make them feel invincible. It makes them feel unnoticed,

But they ARE not unnoticed. A group of half-drunk racist, xenophobic hooligans running through an immigrant district bashing 'pakis' and smashing immigrant cars and windows isn't going to be unnoticed at all. Not opposing that is a bloody disgrace and disqualifies anyone from being a called an antifascist.

[Steve_j]

It's a Catch 22 then. The EDL aren't marching against Indians, Jews or, more generally, black people. In fact, people from these three backgrounds have all marched with the EDL.

A few misguided useful idiots. Go to one of their demos and you will see how few they have. I bet you could count them on 1 hand.

The EDL are marching against these people who choose not to integrate and want to live their own way.

Really please tell me more.

Working class, white men will never, ever take a beating and back down. That's just not the way it works. Not against the enemy. Any violence will only ever strengthen their opinions and make them even angrier.

Cable street, lewisham, waterloo ect, ring any bells?

Do we want them to start petrol bombing Mosques in retaliation? Because they will if it escalates.

Really like in luton? Oh wait, that was before anyone had mobilised against them.

I realise that confrontation never has and never will be the answer. If we want to eradicate it, then ignoring them is the most effective way to do it.

Confrontation alone is not the answer, ofcourse not, but ignoring them? You think they will just go away? For fucks sake, even when anyopposition has been on ther otherside of town, or no where to be seen they have run fucking riot. Stoke, Dudley, Luton! All of these where when any opposition was no where to be seen.

I'm not a pacifist either. I do believe in confrontation but the enemy has to be chosen correctly. Taking the opposition, the general public, the left and the future into account, leads me to think that any confrontation now, will only have a negative effect in the future. It will weaken our cause and strengthen theirs.

Confrontation does not necessarily means violence. There are many ways to confront the EDL, however if you think allowing them to do as they pleased unopossed it brings up another deeper issue. As a former nazi who recently posted on here noted, the EDL are showing the Nazi's that it is possible for the right to mobilise on the street again. If we allow this to go unchecked what kind of message are we sending out them?

[Andropov]

besides, if large groups of chelsea or rangers fans show up the F-side will might as well pick our side again because chelsea and rangers are associated with Fijenoord.

One of my mates is from Rotterdam and is Feyenoord and ran with their mob for years.
And he said the exact opposite to that, he said Feyenoord support Celtic not Rangers for the simple reason that Green and White are the colours of Rotterdam city.

[Ravachol]

One of my mates is from Rotterdam and is Feyenoord and ran with their mob for years.
And he said the exact opposite to that, he said Feyenoord support Celtic not Rangers for the simple reason that Green and White are the colours of Rotterdam city.

From what I've heard there is some Feyenoord-Celtic friendship, mainly because of Feyenoord's victory over Rangers and the working-class backgrounds of both clubs.

Also, do you know if the Ulster Defence League (EDL's Ulster branch) is marching in the occupied 6 counties any time soon Andropov? I've heard the UDL has been planning to attend orange marches and discussed organising a rally against 'fenianism' and 'IRA terrorism' (which the Scottish Defence League discussed as well) similar to the BNP in the '80s.

Even 32CSM's 'Sovereign Nation' paper discussed it. Any info about this?