Why Capitalism doesn't work

[Moskitto]

I'm looking for reasons why capitalism doesn't work to send to that guy who said what was wrong with communism so far i've got.

1. Capitalism creates vast gaps between the rich and the poor in the world as shown by Europe, America and Oceana having 13% of the worlds population and 51% of the worlds GDP.

2. Capitalism has caused untold amounts of death for those in the poorest countries, many of the wealthiest people can pay for the development of Africa, Asia and Latin America and stop famine without denting their assets however they do not

3. Privatisation of industries from former public ownership causes short-cuts to be taken in the bid to make extra profits, this causes lapses in safety and inevitably death eg. Railtrack

4. Capitalist countries invariably looking for new markets rampage around the world to force people into buying their goods, this has caused many deaths and although never spoken of it's legacy remains

5. The main capitalist countries are those where the big economic decisions are made this means that prices for coffee, tea and chocolate are set to benefit the capitalist coorporations not those who grow the coffee, tea and chocolate.

6. Politicians are very sympathetic towards large business and individuals as these give them power on the international arena, they are given tax breaks and subsidies, the poor suffer with higher taxation and lower public spending

add more please

[drunktank]

Unfortunately,
capitalism does work
and communism didn't.

[pce]

you are right drunktank, capitalism does work but only for the capitalists, and since they control everything, they say it works and that makes it so.

however we don't know if communism works or not, we have never had it

------

moskitto, here's another-
7) capitalism insures that there is always a group of people who are in the lower class. imagine if everyone wanted to be a capitalist and own a business, who would they have to work for them? without the workers you are purposely held down, the world would stop turning (maybe you can word this better, i'm not sure i'm making sense...)

[DaNatural]

drunktank you are something else man i dont know why u post on here. how does capitalsm work? by making kids in asia work for 23 cent over 70 hour weeks? of course it creates wealth for nike and walmart etc, but is proper for all peoples? no its not and for you to say capitalsm works is pathetic. it works on the surface butwhen u look under it, you see, drunks, dope heads, murder etc. all for fucking money, pardon my language. the workers own nothing and feel worthless, i can say this from first hand experience. this world would be much better if things were more equal, and this can happen but the people at the top love a society with class structure, so they do what they can do maintain that power. maybe im wrong on this but i dont totally agree with communism cus i feel if u work extra hard or go to school and get a good degree you deserve extra money, but! not at the expense of exploiting your fellow man. That I think is the main point, you can have luxuries, I dont think socialis means making everyone poor, it means making everyone equal, but if you have the chance to have more materials then so be it, but not at the expense of your brother.

[Nickademus]

the problem here is the definition of "works" that we are all using. we aren't using the term universally. drunktank is using the term as if "working" means existing and remaining in existence. however, danatural is using the term "working" meaning that everyone benefits and no one suffers ( a very utilitarian view). just make sure we are all using the same definition or define it before you post (sorry the philosopher/lawyer in me is coming out)

[DarkBrown]

PCE, you stated "
7) capitalism insures that there is always a group of people who are in the lower class. imagine if everyone wanted to be a capitalist and own a business, who would they have to work for them? without the workers you are purposely held down, the world would stop turning (maybe you can word this better, i'm not sure i'm making sense...)

There is an economic theory that is pretty well proven, the theory of supply and demand. If everyone owned a business, workers would be in high demand. Since everyone wants this worker, the worker will go to the higher bidder. Hence the worker makes off with alot more money, maybe more than the business owners. Hence some of the business owners decide to work, etc. That is why lawyers and doctors get paid more than factory workers and mechanics, because it takes years of schooling to be a good lawyer and doctor which makes them almost unreplaceable, while anyone can work in a factory. That is why labor unions are so important, to negotiate a contract for the working class to prevent them from being replaced so immediately and hence paid so little because of their lack of skill and education.

[Moskitto]

My dad is always talking about how the legacy of the colonial empires remains in place and the good land is used to grow crops for export at a price set by western countries and they don't have any money to change them. But when you mention communism to him he just says "communism is a nice idea, it just doesn't take account of human nature"

I think that communism is probably the better system but the only time that we will be sure that it works is when we have so much technology that there is no need for work and capital and business would simply become imaginary by itself, Until then we can only dream and try.

[pce]

darkbrown, you are right, however the demand for workers is much higher than for capitalists. you cannot have 80 capitalists and 20 workers. and as a result it would go right back to workers being paid little and capitalists getting all the profit. after all, we are in the equilibrium right now in the number of workers vs. businessmen. as for your example about doctors and lawyers, first of all anyone can't go to school because they are poor. why are they poor? because they are kept that way like i stated before. and secondly, anyone can't be a doctor or lawyer because we also need workers in factories. in the long run, the workers are just as important as the doctors or lawyers, if not more so. and to say that the doctors deserve a better life is not fair.

as for labor unions: i don't think big corporations will ever allow their workers to be treated fairly. their profits depend on unfair treatment. situations might improve buy they will never change unless the system changes. (i think this should be a slow change not a sudden revolution. and maybe what you say might be in the process, but it shouldn't be the goal)

and moskitto, "communism is a nice idea, it just doesn't take account of human nature," that is what has always bothered me....

[pce]

i think what you are generally talking about, darkbrown, is a sort of "compassionate capitalism." and this is better than straight out capitalism (everyman for himself), and more practical and attainable than socialism - at this point. i think, first we have to strive for this compassionate capitalism, and then try and move on to socialism.

[MattTheCat]

Capitalism has worked as an economic system. The US is an industrial powerhouse while communist countries have generally had little success(though America works hard to make sure this is so). Whether it is morally better it is much more debatable. You say that capitalism kills, which it does, but those who would like to call themselves communists have committed terrible crimes as well. Look at Russia, China and Cuba. I don't believe that those countries were true to the communist ideals and perhaps that is why so many atrocities have been committed. However, many would argue that these social situations come about as a result of the economic situation. It is hard to say that capitalism doesn't work because it has for a long long time. Whether it as an economic system and its resulting moral system could be improved upon, thats a valid argument.

[vox]

and moskitto, "communism is a nice idea, it just doesn't take account of human nature," that is what has always bothered me....

There's only one problem with the human nature argument, there's no such thing as human nature. It's a term frequently tossed about but never defined. This is because the definition changes to whatever the dominant social mores are at any given time. During Feudalism, it was completely natural that a serf should be a serf, too. There was no thought of a serf becoming a lord, of course. The sheer absudity of the idea precluded it's thought. That would break the "natural" order of human relationships. Now, it's natural to be greedy, right? Self-interest is the only interest that we can serve. Of course, that's not true, and it only takes on exception to prove it wrong.

Indeed, if capitalism is an outgrowth of some sort of unchanging "human nature," then we would have had capitalist economies from the very start, but that isn't the case.

For a very fine essay about capitalism from a Marxist point of view, I recommend The Marxian Crises Theory. It's long, and maybe a bit more academic than a lot of folks like, but it's important and I think it provides a very good foundation for the understanding of the contradictions inherent in the capitalist mode of production.

vox

[Capitalist Imperial]

I think there are a few points we are missing here. I think most of us can agree than neither pure communism nor pure capitalism exists. The present systems that contemporary empires are based on lie on a spectrum between the two theoretical ideologies. Also, we could argue all day about the acadmic principles of each system, but real world data proves that Capitalism is the much better system. The free-marketcapitalist system that America represents has produced the strongest economy that has ever existed, and the best standard of living ever. Even America's poor live relatively well. This is a measurable fact. Notions of exploitation of thirld world countries for the most part amount to nothing more than making excuses for nations that have not been as industrious and ingeneous (and to some extent lucky) as the US has been. I mean, please, exploitation? What do you call standing in line 4 hours for a loaf of bread? Killing 50 million people (Stalin)? What more needs to be said??? Another consideration is that capitalism encourages individual innovation and acheivement. This principle is proven in reality in thatthe vast majority of technological innovation that has benefitted humanity in the last 150 years has come out of the United States. This includes both the computer you are looking at and the internet you are communicationg through. Also, we discuss exploitation of smaller countries by the U.S, but fail to address the fact that the US is by far the most humane and alturistic country on earth, both in terms of dollars spent (debt relief and direct monetary aid) and in people and organizations contrributing service and aid abroad. When there is a major naturalk disaster, what is the only country to contribute money and resources to assist in aid? The USA. I cant remember a time when the Soviets, Cuba, or China contributed to foreign relief of any kind. Finally, immigration. The USA has quite a challenge accomodating the thousands of immigrants (worker-class, mind you) that enter its borders daily. Many of these people are risking both their and their family's life just for an opportunity to get in. Why? Because capitalist "workers" still live much better than communist or socialist "workers". Needless to say, China, Cuba, and the then Soviet union (failed system,remember?) had no immigration problem. Their border control budgets were allocated to keep people in!!! Its a self explanatory phenomenon!!! So, we could argue academic and philisophical principals all day, but real world data and behavior makes it self evident that the American form of Capitalism is by far the best system going today. Also, I have been pretty much discussing economic aspects of capitalism, to say nothing of the personal freedoms and the opportunity given to Amercian citizens to pursue success and what makes them happy. These fundamental principles are, to say the least, severely hindered by centrist governments. Look at real world activity, and you see the best real world system.