"education" in the u.s.

[pce]

i just attended an discussion about the censorship of art where a panel of five people in the art world discussed what censorship is and why it is practiced. the audience could also interact. anyways, here are a few points that were made and some i came out with myself that i'd like to share:

-the education system in the u.s. is no longer geared towards providing an education for the sake of education and knowledge, instead it is geared towards getting kids ready to enter the work force

-censorship is often practiced in order for one party to overpower another party. for one party to deny another party freedom of expression and therefore allow itself to influence the public more easily

-the people seemed to use "capitalism" and "consumerism" interchangeably. i think this is wrong, consumerism is part of capitalism but it is not the same thing. (am i wrong on that?)

-i was surprised that this was said- "when people think of political censorship they often think of mao or stalin or hitler, but they don't think of the democracy we supposedly live in here in the u.s." (or something to that effect)

-i think it is interesting to note that political censorship is never found out by the people who are the victim of it. the people who are being censored never find out they are being censored. (that is the nature of censorship) and i think this is the case in the u.s. and as a result, americans point to other countries that they know use censorship and think that the u.s. is so great because they think the same isn't being done to them

[Chief Rebel Angel]

in the u.s. it is done to a much lesser extent right? well i'm not american..

[RedCeltic]

I think what you're talking about is "American Propaganda" or rather indoctrination of what the Government, or society thinks Americans should know and believe while supressing the ideas and influcences that are seen as contradictory to what they want American children to grow up beliving.

You say : " the education system in the u.s. is no longer geared towards providing an education for the sake of education and knowledge, " yet when was it provided free of propaganda and censorship?

I remember talking at a family gathering once and mentioning that I think that history in High School is only used to teach American children to love America, and the ugly truth about American history is glossed over, or skipped. Things like the Trans Atlantic slave Trade, Explotation of Native Americans, child labor, sweat shops, and wage slavery, the truth about so called heros like George Washington, Wodrow Wilson, and of course, the truth about the American Labor movement, and the truth about Socialism, Communism, etc... Anyway... I had just graduated High School, and was reading alot about history, and I was realizing how much they lied to us in School... it was the summer of 89, and I remember saying all this at a family gathering. My dad who graduated high school in 1959 said that the same was true when he was in school, and thought that the major reason was to teach one to love the U.S. and Communism, or Socialism, if mentioned at all, was only mentioned in scorn of the damn sovites, and then in fear of the revolution in Cuba. What was shocking to me was that my Grandmother (my mother's mother the only American grandparent I had) said, " Awhh, " with a wave, " that's nothing new, They may have watered down the truth for you, ignored it for your father, but in my day, they flat out lied about it. " Is it getting better? no not by a longshot.

You are right that education isn't used for learning, but for indocrination, but that's nothing new... the question is... is it getting better or worse?

[Nickademus]

i don't know about in the us but up here in canada, the morning's prayer is never said anymore. i always remember it being done in grade school. its because non-christians complained that their children were being indoctrinated. when it was only a few parents, their kids were sent out of the room while it was said, now its simply not done. yet, no one talked about why. all the kids know is that they don't do it anymore. heaven forbid (i'm using that expression mockingly) children should be taught that there are other religions outside christianity.

[RedCeltic]

I can't say exactly when it changed in the United States.. I know my parents had to say the prayer when they where in school... but I never did.... Ever since I started school... we had a "moment of silence" after the "Pledge of Alegence" ( I plede alegence to the flag of the United States of America.... etc...) The moment of silence was so that anyone who wanted to pray could, but those who didn't want to weren't told... "Now pray". And then again... I live in New York... I don't know how or if it changed in the rest of America... I'm sure the south still has prayer vidgles before sports games and classes etc.

[RedCeltic]

Damn... I should have mentioned this in my last post... I just thought of it just after I hit the submit button...

In the New York School distrect... when I was in School from 76 - 89... they never talked about religion at all. Not Christianity, Buddism, Islam, Hinduism, nothing. If they did have to talk about a religion... it was done in a way as to talk about it simply as mythology, or simply... well... void of any doctrine, you wouldn't know much about the religion. And even evelution was only brefly mentioned, and strongly stressed as a "THEORY" as to not upset the creationists.

I don't know how Evelution is taught in schools now in NY. Right now in fact I'm taking a "Evelution of earth and Life" class... to fill the requirement of a science outside of the Archaeology requirements. And some kid said, " I loved this class when I took it in High School" well.. as I said... when I went to school it was only brefly mentioned... the teacher maybe mentioned something about Darwin and the HMS Begile once.... for maybe 20 minnets... (if that long). So... things must have changed since then.

[pce]

i pledge allegence to the flag of the united states of america,
and to the republic for which it stands,
one nation under god,
divisible, with liberty and justice for some.

i live in california and used to live in the south on the east coast. (not the deep south but getting there)
and as far as i can remember we didn't have any prayer in school what-so-ever. however there wasn't that much talk about evolution either (it was pretty much taboo) and there wasn't any talk about other religions. (coming from a muslim background myself, i was often asked whether muslims believed in god) here in california it is much different. because there is such a variety of students from so many backgrounds, different religions are talked about much more. i've had buddist, muslim, christain, etc. students in my classes. also, since science is a required class all through high school, there is much more talk about evolution and it is obvious that many teachers believe in evolution and others believe in creationism. there are also many students (prabably 50/50) who believe in evolution. however there is no official religion classes, there is only "bible literature" which explores the influence of the bible throughout literature, and this is not a required course.

it is ironic that now there are arguements that religion isn't taught in school enough

-also what i ment by school isn't for education anymore but for getting kids ready to work is that no one (student or teacher) cares about learning anymore. everything is geared towards getting a job as soon as possible after college. a couple of years ago i was discussing my schedule with a classmate, and he asked me about a class i was taking that wasn't required and he said "don't tell me you want to learn do you?" in a sarcastic way. my point is that school isn't made for learning, just for getting you out and into the capitalist system as soon as possible. before there was a love for knowledge (however skewed it might have been).

[RedCeltic]

Hmmm what you said I suppose applies to New York State as well... when I was in school the "Regents" exams and classes where primaraly for those who wanted to go on to higher education. They geared you to... well as you say... getting out of college sooner and into the workforce. Most of us, maybe took some of those classes, but didn't take the exams, nor recive a Regents diploma... nowdays it's mandatory... the lowest diploma one can recieve (aside from a GED for dropouts) is the Regents diploma. Many people even teachers argue that not everyone wants to go to college, or needs to... or... well... can. But higher standers are the general idea that the school boards, and burucrats have for improving education. Not spending more money, not hiring more teachers, not changing the structure, just raising standards. I think that's a mistake... there where people who had specal needs when I went to school... people who needed more help, I can't imagine they don't exist in the 21's century, and I can't imagine people like the ones who once struggled to get a general local diploma will now be able to get the higher one. Maybe the expect them all to drop out and go for the GED...

I have a cousin in Scotland who told me that they learn a trade rather than continuing with school... for him it was joining (carpentry) and works now as a joiner making good money. Hamish ( my cousin) couldn't think of doing anything elce, and is glad that he had the training in school to learn that. Now you could also say that he didn't learn for the sake of learning, but learned a trade in order to be a vital part of the workforce.

I don't really know where I'm going with this... but uh... I suppose I see your point.

[DaNatural]

nickademus i just finished high school 2 years ago, i also live in canada, toronto to be exact we never did the prayer in high school but i remember grade 3 being the last year we did those stupid prayers. i recall in my last year of high school we had a debate on whether we should bring back the school prayer that idiot harris and his goons saw it fit that it return. i think school prayer is absoltutel ridiculous and i think it needs to be done away with, as far as education goes, i think the public system is horrific. i barely made it out of high school and when i finished i hated it. i barely learnt a thing but now that im in college ive taken an interest in school. i think the whole education system is geared towards getting people frustrated so that they can file those who hate school into mindless zombie jobs. and our government has recently admitted that it is gearing more towards computer technology they are trying to get rid of philosophical classes or sociology classes. anything that threatens the capitalist form of society is seemingly being abolished in schools. and someone mentioned the propaganda in schools as far as history goes. that has to be the worst of all throughout school they made the native americans seem like the bad guys. its absurd something needs to be done about this lack of "education"

[DarkBrown]

Censorship in my country is not done through confiscation of radio networks or the seizing of independent, private newspapers, it is done through Keynesian economics. A network wants to stay on top, so they support network friendly candidates with huge contributions of money in exchange for a friendly relationship with the government. Hence they can play what they want to play, branch into these areas of the public, not have to be subjected to anti-trust suits, and whatever. Well, they also have to help get that person elected, hence they promote his ideas on their networks and his image while limiting his opposition. Well, pretty soon the networks, which own like 50 billion channels, have to watch what they air to the public without upsetting the political agenda. Hence, censorhip brought around by the natural necessity to expand and compete among business.