who won the war?

[kingbee]

george orwell said that without uk and us- the ussr would have been beaten by the nazis in ww2- i have heard otherwise too- what are your opinions?

[versus]

Orwell never forgave The USSR for disillusioning him. In my opinion Hitler's mad dash to invade Russia cost him the most. You would think he would have learned from Napoleon's fiasco march into Moscow. But no, he seemed to have been a psychotic individual.

Here's something that might be new to all of you. Did you know that during WWI the U.S. invaded the USSR?
Wilson ordered several thousands troops in to Russia.
Every U.S. textbook fails to mention it but the textbooks in the former Soviet Union detailed the invasion in full.

[CheGuevara]

As much as I like Orwell, or at least his books 1984 and Animal Farm, I think he's wrong. I'm not by any means a USSR defender, in fact I'm a USSR attacked, but it seems to me that Germany was already defeated by the time of the Normandy invasion, and the prior landings in Italy didn't seem to be a major drain on the Germans. By the time the Russians launched Operation Bagration in late June 1944, where the Germans had the majority of their forces, the Germans were so weak that the Russians cut right through them.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from versus on 12:17 am on Aug. 31, 2001

Here's something that might be new to all of you. Did you know that during WWI the U.S. invaded the USSR?
Wilson ordered several thousands troops in to Russia.
Every U.S. textbook fails to mention it but the textbooks in the former Soviet Union detailed the invasion in full.

i personally wasn't aware of that b ut it doesn't surprise me. History isn't truth, its the winner's side of the story

[Chief Rebel Angel]

Quote: from Nickademus on 4:51 am on Aug. 31, 2001

i personally wasn't aware of that b ut it doesn't surprise me. History isn't truth, its the winner's side of the story

wow...

[Nickademus]

and as a history major, i am truly aware of the truth of my above statement

[RedCeltic]

Wow... is about all I can say too... I was a history major... now an Archaology major, but anyway... I'm fully aware about how the US misrepresents it's own history... but I never heard about the US invading the USSR... not that I doubt it...

[RedCeltic]

Yea... I didn't know about this so I looked it up. Apperently the U.S. sent troops who fought on the side of the Tzar and the Whites. Also a few of my fellow "history buff" friends knew about it because they read about it, but agree, it was never talked about in American schools.

[Guest]

Yeah President Wilson feared communism and the example it may engender across the globe particularly in Latin America. Wilson also launched forays into Mexico. I learned all this in History class at the university. The title of the class was The Rise of the American Empire. Another interesting fact is that during WWII President Franklin Roosevelt purposely delayed sending troops to aid the Soviets during Stalin's time when Amerika finally had decalred war on the Axis powers. As you all know the Soviets were very hard pressed by the Nazis. I think they lost about 20 million soldiers and civilians during the war. Well my professor said that Stalin kept sending messages to Roosevelt (when the Americans were already in the war) asking for help and badly needed troops. And Roosevelt just delayed for months. This made the Russians very suspicious of the Yankees. They viewed this as the Yankee desire to see the Russians become weakened by the Nazi onslaught.

[RedCeltic]

Yea... also the guy I'm using as my picture, "Avatar" whatever... is Eugine V. Debs... he ran for President five times... and when he was running for congressman or something he made anti war (WWI) speaches and was sentanced to ten years in prison. ( also the quote I have of him is from his speach at the trial) he then ran for president while in jail.. Anyway... I did hear he did alot of the things you mentioned... I may have even heard somewhere that he helped the Tzar out... I just haven't studied on that much.

It's odd... My father always thought Wilson was a "good guy" and I aways thought of him as such, untill I started to read about some of the things he had done.

[pce]

eugene debs reminds me of someone i actually learned about in school. i forgot the guys name but he was running for president and he came up with a "share the wealth platform." i dont remember the details (i will ask my teacher again as soon as school starts) but his idea was something along the lines of people can only make a certain amount of money, and anything over that is taken and redistributed to everyone. also, people can't make less than a certain amount. you can save your money until a certain amount (i think $1 million which is more than you'll ever need in your life time if you think about it) and anything past that would again be redestributed. there may be some holes in my discribtion as i don't remember everything exactly but it was something to that effect. has anyone else heard of this? i think this is a very effective, practical, and real-world solution to everything. but guess what, he was conveniently killed right before the elections (supposedly by one of his opponents who was a hard right-winger and suspected anti-semetic which was what lead to his downfall) he had a strong following too.

also, redceltic, isn't there a great e. debs quote that says something like -as long as there is a man in prison i am not happy, as long as there is a man hungry i am not happy, etc. i don't know, it was something to that effect, i was wondering if you'd heard of it...

[DarkBrown]

It was not Russia that beat Germany, nor was it the United States involvement, it was the freezing winter that beat Germany. If it were not for that Winter, Hitler would have ruled all of Europe and probably have held back the world for another 5 years before being defeated. Thats the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you Zapata!

[RedCeltic]

Debs was famous because he was a great speaker, and not because of any great ideas he had. I don't think he said anything that had not been said before... I think it was more of how he said it, and how he was able to rally the people.

Yea I like that quote from Debs also... he said it a bit diffrent... here is a few quotes from him... the first being the quote your thinking of;




Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
Eugene V. Debs, Founder of the American Railway Union

The earth is for all the people. That is the demand.
The machinery of production and distribution for all the people. That is the demand.
The collective ownership and control of industry and its democratic management in the interest of all the people. That is the demand.
The elimination of rent, interest, profit and the production of wealth to satisfy the wants of all the people. That is the demand.
Cooperative industry in which all shall work together in harmony as the basis of a new social order, a higher civilization, a real republic. That is the demand.
The end of class struggles and class rule, of master and slave, or ignorance and vice, of poverty and shame, of cruelty and crime -- the birth of freedom, the dawn of Brotherhood, the beginning of MAN. That is the demand.
1903, Speaking before the Western Federation of Miners

The strike is the weapon of the oppressed, of men capable of appreciating justice and having the courage to resist wrong and contend for principle. The nation had for its cornerstone a strike, and while arrogant injustice throws down the gauntlet and challenges the right to conflict, strikes will come, come by virtue of irrevocable laws, destined to have a wider sweep and greater power as men advance in intelligence and independence
1888, Speaking during the strike of engineers and firemen on the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Rail Line

They are distorted, deformed, hideous mentally and morally. Their trade is treason, their breath is pollution and yet the officials of the C.B.&Q. formed a conspiracy with these professional liars, perjurers, cut-throats and murderers to overcome a strike, the result of a policy of flagrant injustice.
1888 Speaking during the strike of engineers and firemen on the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Rail Line in which Pinkerton thugs, hired by the railroad, frequently assaulted strikers.

If it is a fact that after working for George M. Pullman for many years you appear two weeks after your work stops, ragged and hungry, it only emphasizes that the charge I made before this community, and Pullman stands before you a self-confessed robber....The paternalism of Pullman is the same as the self-interest of a slave-holder in his human chattels. You are striking to avert slavery and degradation.
1894, Speaking in Pullman, Ill.,
During the American Railway Union's Pullman Strike

I told my friends of the cloth that I did not believe Christ was meek and lowly but a real living, vital agitator who went into the temple with a lash and a krout and whipped the oppressors of the poor, routed them out of the doors and spilled their blood and got silver on the floor. He told the robbed and misruled and exploited and driven people to disobey their plunderers, he denounced the profiteers, and it was for this that they nailed his quivering body to the cross and spiked it to the gates of Jerusalem, not because he told them to love one another. That was harmless doctrine. But when he touched their profits and denounced them before their people he was marked for crucifixion.
Speaking to a reporter for Call from his prison cell in 1919 while serving time for making anti-war speeches.

Am I my brother's keeper? [That frequently asked question] has never been answered in a way that is satisfactory to civilized society. Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by maudlin sentimentality, but by the higher duty I owe myself.
It is when you have done your work honestly, when you have contributed your share to the common fund that you begin to live. Then, as Whitman said, you can take out your soul; you can commune with yourself; you can take a comrade by the hand and you can look into his soul and in that holy communion you live. And if you don't know what that is, or if you are not at least on the edge of it, it is denied you even to look into the Promised Land.
From a speech given at the founding of the Federal Council of Churches in Girard, Kansas, 1908

Solidarity is not a matter of sentiment but a fact, cold and impassive as the granite foundations of a skyscraper. If the basic elements, identity of interest, clarity of vision, honesty of intent, and oneness of purpose, or any of these is lacking, all sentimental please for solidarity, and all other efforts to achieve it will be barren of results

[RedCeltic]

Oh... and also another one ... "I would not be a capitalist, I would be a man; you cannot be both at the same time." --Eugene Debs