Abortion

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

I have always been fiercly pro choice, yet an ex girlfriend recently challenged my views on the subject.

She is a socialist and an athiest.

I will post her points, feel free to rebuke or back them.

She said, if i get pregnant, why would i have the right to kill the baby in my body, that baby has rights to live and to be free.

If i had a baby with you (me) and wanted an abortion but you didnt, or vice versa, the male should get an equal say in the future of the baby, women always say it makes two people to make a baby, just because i have a virgina does not mean i have sole authority

She then went on to say if you have a sex consentually, then you have the moral responsibillity to birth it and love it, yet if your free will was not used (rape) then it is ok to abort as you did not willfully create the fetus.

I said she was wrong that a man shouldnt be able to stop women from aborting and that saying rape victims can abort, but teenage single mums cant is hypocrytical and wrong.
What do you think?

[Sentinel]

The main argument would be that of bodily autonomy. Society should not be able to decide for women what they are to carry inside their bodies or not. Nor should any man or other person -- related to the foetus or not -- and for the same reason: it's her body, and her decision.

While a foetus on the other hand is basically, when all the sensitive nice talk is dropped, a parasitic organism that cannot survive without it's mother -- not a 'baby', a person that can have rights.

Thread moved to Women's Struggle.

[Mumbles]

Precisely what Sentinel said. As well as, what is being affected by the parasite's death? Is it human? What makes it human? The idea of independent thought and the belief that one has a soul? Ha

[Foldered]

If i had a baby with you (me) and wanted an abortion but you didnt, or vice versa, the male should get an equal say in the future of the baby, women always say it makes two people to make a baby, just because i have a virgina does not mean i have sole authority

First of all, a vagina isn't the main female component of pregnancy, a uterus is. And yes, having a uterus means you have sole authority, in my opinion. It isn't very hard to come to that conclusion, either. Of course, in a situation where a couple is having a child, ideally, equal dialogue would take place, but to say that a man has just as much say in decisions is severely limiting and constraining. Ultmately, while the product of both an egg and sperm, an embryo (or zygote, or fetus, or whatever), is a part of the female's body, and thus the reason for decisions to be ultimately hers.

She then went on to say if you have a sex consentually, then you have the moral responsibillity to birth it and love it, yet if your free will was not used (rape) then it is ok to abort as you did not willfully create the fetus.

Any sort of argument that is founded on a concept like "moral responsibility" should be questioned severely. What is "moral responsibility?" Why is it a moral responsiblity for someone to take care a fetus, zygote, etc?

Unfortunately, your girlfriend's mode of thinking is neither very much athiestic, nor is it very socialist, in my opinion. Her argument that if you have sex (and get pregnant) you have a "moral reponsibility" to raise an embryo into full development, and so on, sounds strikingly like the rhetoric of the conservative, religious right. Even to say "except in the cases of rape" sounds like some pro-life liberal.

Sorry if any of that sounded harsh, I don't mean it to be, but it's hard to tread lightly on this subject matter.

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

yeah i agree, we broke up because of her nonsene in such matters

[cska]

She said, if i get pregnant, why would i have the right to kill the baby in my body, that baby has rights to live and to be free.

Ideally, yes. However, I don't consider killing fetuses to be extremely bad, but then again I don't consider infanticide to be that bad either.

If i had a baby with you (me) and wanted an abortion but you didnt, or vice versa, the male should get an equal say in the future of the baby, women always say it makes two people to make a baby, just because i have a virgina does not mean i have sole authority

Does this really ever happen? It would seem to me that the men that would actually want to spend the effort raising a kid would have sex with a woman who wouldn't have an abortion...

She then went on to say if you have a sex consentually, then you have the moral responsibillity to birth it and love it, yet if your free will was not used (rape) then it is ok to abort as you did not willfully create the fetus.

Not as simple in a male-centric society where society thinks of women as being there for the sexual entertainment of men, and a society in which a woman who doesn't have an abortion often ends up being a single mother raising her child without the help of the father, and where raising a child can seriously limit your career options.

I said she was wrong that a man shouldnt be able to stop women from aborting and that saying rape victims can abort, but teenage single mums cant is hypocrytical and wrong.
What do you think?

Well, I wouldn't say it is hypocritical, as being a teenage single mother is a lot different from being a rape victim.

Basically, what your stance on abortion boils down to is this: our society oppresses both women and children. Which one to help at the expense of the other? Take your pick. For most of history, feminists chose the children, and expected society to start supporting mothers. More recently, feminists are choosing the women, so that women no longer have the disadvantage to men of getting pregnant in a society that makes that very difficult.

btw, I have never liked the dependancy argument. Actually, I have hated it. It seems to be a capitalist argument. I mean, if you have a disabled kid whom you are raising who is fully dependent on you to provide for his needs, would it be acceptable for you to kill him?

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

The thing is ive been told people get kicked off revleft for being pro life, so alot of socialists will be pro life but never say so, this stops them from engaging in debate, thus not ridding them of their fallacy

[cska]

The thing is ive been told people get kicked off revleft for being pro life, so alot of socialists will be pro life but never say so, this stops them from engaging in debate, thus not ridding them of their fallacy

Yeah I believe the same thing happens in feminist circles.

[32csmabu]

im pro life, embryologists define the foetus as a human being why should we be harangued for following what the only branch of medicine to deal with the subject has to say. given the recent situations in italy where children have survived abortions twice within a month i find it disgusting to see them being described as parasites.

[Argument]

If i had a baby with you (me) and wanted an abortion but you didnt, or vice versa, the male should get an equal say in the future of the baby, women always say it makes two people to make a baby, just because i have a virgina does not mean i have sole authority

Actually, you (the man) shouldn't have any authority. If she wants to keep the baby but you want an abortion, do you think it would be right to force her, against her will, to abort the fetus? If she wants to abort the baby but you want her to keep it, well, assuming that abortion is legal, why should you have the right to force her to carry the baby?

[Buddha Samurai Cadre]

I didnt say i do, she said it lol.

BTW, on my estate there are some girls who shag around and have lots of abortions, but then et pregnant again, how can even pro choice die hards say that is ok?

To have abortions over and over again is a bit wrong, in the fact, it could be avoided with a condom

Or am i wrong?

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

You broke up within a day of here declaring that viewpoint? People take some time to change their mind. That seems a little rash to me.

Anyway, the obvious issue is the fetus doesn't have anything to justify person-status until late in the pregnancy.

[Foldered]

im pro life, embryologists define the foetus as a human being why should we be harangued for following what the only branch of medicine to deal with the subject has to say. given the recent situations in italy where children have survived abortions twice within a month i find it disgusting to see them being described as parasites.

Those embryologists that define a foetus as a human being are probably pro-life, too, thus the definition.

You broke up within a day of here declaring that viewpoint? People take some time to change their mind. That seems a little rash to me.

I doubt that was the only reason, but if it is, to be fair, it's really hard to continue a relationship when you differ on such fundamental levels as pro-life/pro-choice.

[Omegared]

Everyone knows that a fetus/embryo is on of many stages of human life and has the chromosomes of both parents.

Never understood the point in getting abortions outside of population control: If you dont want a pregnancy, use one of many contraceptive products. And then there is adoption, there are many women that would love to have a child but cannot due to medical problems.

[Omegared]

How can anyone that claims to value human life refer to a fellow human as a parasite extremely disturbing. Guess we are all parasites once!?

[Glenn Beck]

I think that if we are going to allow abortions to be performed we should insist that it should be done sometime before the 12th week of development.

Mainly because, before then, there are few bones and they haven't yet hardened which makes for easy to prepare fetus nuggets. It's a culinary experience that's difficult to top.

[Sentinel]

BTW, on my estate there are some girls who shag around and have lots of abortions, but then et pregnant again, how can even pro choice die hards say that is ok?

To have abortions over and over again is a bit wrong, in the fact, it could be avoided with a condom

Or am i wrong?

You're right that it would be a lot simpler for them, and I don't get why they don't do precisely that instead. But it doesn't really affect the argument about abortion at all, the fetus is still not a person and the women should still decide about their bodies.

If they want to go through abortions (can't be very fun) instead of using contraceptives, that should still be their pregorative.

[spiltteeth]

Foldered;1742104]Those embryologists that define a foetus as a human being are probably pro-life, too, thus the definition.

Its defined as a human for pure scientific reasons - it has a unique 46 chromosomes separate from the mother.

Forget 'soul' or 'personality' - a coma pt may have neither.

Many pts need a machine to survive and are 'parasitic' as well.

The vast majority of abortions in the US are AFTER the embryo stage, however.

[Sentinel]

Its defined as a human for pure scientific reasons - it has a unique 46 chromosomes separate from the mother.

I don't see how that is relevant at all? They are still just the materia from which a person can evolve, not persons.

Many pts need a machine to survive and are 'parasitic' as well.

But not to a person's body, who will have to carry them inside them, and then give birth to them, which is not a dance on roses as I've understood it.

The vast majority of abortions in the US are AFTER the embryo stage, however.

Well, due to the argument about women's bodily autonomy it doesn't really matter at which stage it is. Could be 5 minutes before birth, for all I care.

Do you not support the right to abortion at any stage?

[Glenn Beck]

The vast majority of abortions in the US are AFTER the embryo stage, however.

Actually, no

Gest. week Abortions weeks/bin Abortions/week /1000 Percent
<9 weeks 400197 8 50024.63 50.02 60.6%
9-10 112936 2 56468 56.47 17.1%
11-12 60323 2 30161.5 30.16 9.1%
13-15 41517 3 13839 13.84 6.3%
16-20 24837 5 4967.4 4.97 3.8%
> 21 8365 19 440.26 0.44 1.3%