Pinochet - Should this bastard be put to his misery?

[El Che de Boca Jrs]

I Think Pinochets crimes cannot go unpunished, this fucking bastard not only killed one of the very few good presidents in the history of the world (And destroyed his good programs towards the poor) but killed people like theirs no tomorrow just for speaking out, up to today bodys are still being found. Latin America has suffered a lot with these bullshit right-wing dictatorships, the same happened in Argentina with that other scum, Videla (some friends of my family were killed by his Gestapo). I think there are two things that could be done to Pinochet 1. FRY HIS ASS, 2. Give him life imprisonment like Videla so he could live with the hate he has won from sane, humanitarian people. What are your opinions?

[Nickademus]

Personally, I believe the death penalty is a form of torture that shouldn't be immposed on anyone. I don't think Timothy McVeigh should have been put to death either. I do, however, agree with putting him away for life.

[rebel7609]

I'm curious as to how you can be such an admirer of Che and be against the death penatly with all the executions he had ordered and taken part in. I know we've discussed how you don't have to believe in everything someone believes in to admire them but this is a pretty big issue to over look.
In case you haven't guessed- I DO believe in the death penalty. ESPECIALLY for McVeigh. I don't know where you live but every time I open a newspaper someone has sexually molested a child, raped and murdered some woman, robbed and beat to death some old couple and most recently- shot a little girl on her way home from school in a drive-by because she was black. I don't think these kind of people deserve to live in society. It seems like people with good morals in this world are on the decline.
And I'm not trying to debate or sway you- I know that this is an issue that you believe in one way. Period. I'm just surprised in your point of view.
P.

[Nickademus]

I agree largely with SheLeft. Too many innocent people have been placed in jail. Besides, the state condemns those who commit murder, but state-sanctioned murder is okay? Seems like the usual political contradiction that most of us here hate.
We can't put people who murder one person to death when our governments routinely slaughter people (in the case of Canada and the US largely in foreign countries). I also believe that people should be forced to deal with and think about what they have done. The don't deal with that when they are killed by the state.

[rebel7609]

For Sheleft again I repeat:
>I know we've discussed how you don't have to believe in everything someone believes in to admire them

I also believe in standing up for those who can't defend themselves. What about the people who can't defend themselves against the predators I spoke of above.
But I wasn't referring to executing someone based on their political beliefs. I hadn't even thought of that. Obviously we don't come from the same place because I've never seen anyone (where I live) be tortured or executed for being leftist. I don't support the death penalty for believing in something. The cases I referred to above are completely different. Passionately believing in something and going out and randomly raping the next woman you see on the street and a little different.
I DO believe on tolerance and reserve as well. I mean, look what this website/message board is all about and why we're here. This is just one issue that I disagree with you on. Yes, the choice to support/fight the death penalty is a very personal one. Personal experience with having something horrible happening to a loved one (or even someone you don't personally know) who is innocent vulnerable and defenseless might make some people change their minds.

[Nickademus]

Rebel, I think people get angry and want revenge and that is why people want the killers, rapists etc to die. That doesn't protect society though. In order to protect society from these people, we have to change the system (and i'm not referring simply to the judicial system). Killing those who have committed crimes is not a preventative measure. It has been shown, time and time again, that the death penalty is not a deterant to people. So what purpose does the death penalty serve? SOME people may think that having the offender killed will make them feel better, but find some people who have actually had that happen. It doesn't necessarily help. Many victims have questions they want to ask the offender and anger they want to let out and release on the offender. Killing the offender doesn't allow them this release. Therefore, I think that while some victims (and by victims I include family etc of the direct victims of violence) THINK they will feel better if their offender is killed, they will MOST LIKELY realize afterwards that's not what they wanted.

And with regards to personal experience changing people's minds, I disagree. I don't know if you saw this earlier but I have been raped. I don't want the guy who raped me to be killed, I don't even think jail is right for him. He needs help and neither of those punishments is appropriate. Don't assume that everyone wants their offender to die.

[rebel7609]

Nickademus- I didn't know that about you. I think that is horrible. Even though I don't know you personally, just knowing that a crime like that was committed against you makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. I think you are a very brave and strong person to have something like that happen to you and still be able to feel this way. I really do. I feel like I'm being perceived as some kind of freak here. I just want the world to be a better place where people stop committing violent crimes against eachother. The death penalty wouldn't even exist if there wasn't a need for a form of punishment for violent criminals. But please understand that I DO agree with your agrument in some ways.

(but I'd still be first in line to say that this guy needs to be removed from society. Even if you wouldn't want that, I'd be doing it to protect his next victim or the next crime he would commit which would most likely be even more violent.)

[Guest]

I agree with you Rebel. Rapists should most definetly be taken out of society so they cannot rape again. I am not as forgiving. I was raped by a habitual rapist who watched his victims and later broke into our houses when we were sleeping holding them us at gun point and threatening our lives. Four other women could not identify the rapist or did not come forward to do so and he repeatedly raped again. I was able to identify him along with another victim and personally I've had no qualms of testifying in court and putting him behind bars for 15 - 20 years. I have no guilt or regret of doing so. He DESERVED it. I don't want to speak to him or hear a any of his contrived remorse so he gain an early parole. Society is not going to be safe until these type of people are locked away and punished for their crimes. Too many get away and are walking the streets today. That goes for date rapists and pedophiles. also.

-- Maria

[Nickademus]

To Maria,

There is a difference however between removing these people from society by placing them in prisons where they have a chance to change and heal and remove them by killing them. Our penal system is not the greatest but at the moment it is what we have, and its better than state-sanctioned murder.

[Guest]

Nicademus,

I feel differently about the death penalty. I have no problem with it when it's used for the most heineous crimes. I don't see prison as a place of healing or a place to reflect. It's not a place of hard punishment. Prisoners work, get paid, get 3 meals a day, exercise in an exercise room, watch television, socialize, have visitation, and are able to go outside.
The tax payers are paying for this. Some crimes are horribly callous and murderers and rapists should not have it so good. The system we have is one of injustice to the victim.

I have no love for my rapist. I will not be attending his funeral when he dies. Had the death penalty been offered to him I would not have fought against it. He remains arrogantly unremorseful to his victims and a one victim is permanently injured for life.

-- Maria

[Guest]

I would like to add that in the rape support group it was said that the majority of rapists are still free and walking the streets, especially the date rapers. which is very common and some women don't even realize they are being raped because they are out on a date. The victims of date rape did not feel comfortable pressing charges against someone they knew and did not go to a hospital because they were had been on a date and most had drank alcohol and thought that was a factor or would be looked at as being a the cause,(which is not true). Because of that DNA evidence was lost which is important for convicting.

[Nickademus]

Maria I understand all that but still i don't feel these people should die. They are usually a product of society. Changing society is therefore the necessary key and continuing to kill off those that don't conform to our current ideals simply perpetuates the situation.

[myrmidon of Che]

Pinochet was a pimp. He never could have outfought Che had the latter been alive. The sheer terror that Pinochet and his lackeys created is enough to warrant for his immediate execution. No trial, no jury, straight to execution. History has already tried him and he was found guilty of betraying his country to the corporate interests of Amerika. Throwing people off airplanes into the sea, kidnapping sons, daughters, mothers and fathers. Leaving children orphaned, wives widowed, parents childless and women shamed by rapists. Yeah he had his day... that pimp. Now it's high time for reckoning.

[Nickademus]

betraying one's country to the amerikas is not that unusual

[El Che de Boca Jrs]

I think the death penalty should depend on the caliber of the crimes and weather its obvious that they commited them, true, many innocent people have been put in death row with little evidence or none at all (as is Mumia Abu-Jamal's case), but with crimes as barbarous as Pinochet's and the obvious fact that he was behind all the murders and dissapearences, he should no doubt be a candidate, actually killing him dosent NEARLY make up for all the familys he has brought to misery, all the people he has killed and how Chile suffered for so many years. All of his followers that commited those crimes should die as well, whih still wouldnt mark the line of justice but in almost every case of crime, justice can never be fulfilled (especially people who kill or rape more than one person) so the least we could do is make it as fair as possible.

[drunktank]

If I were a priest,
I would give my life
to hide him.

If I were a judge,
death penalty would
be the least I could
give him.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from drunktank on 10:34 pm on Aug. 25, 2001
If I were a priest,
I would give my life
to hide him.

If I were a judge,
death penalty would
be the least I could
give him.

so being what you are, how do you feel?

[drunktank]

Nickademus,

I'm confused about that.

I think that
it's not my job to judge him
and if God doesn't kill him for
what he has done, I won't.

[Chief Rebel Angel]

an eye for an eye... pretty primitive i know... but i believe its the right way.. tho every rule has its exceptions...

(Edited by Chief Rebel Angel at 1:33 am on Aug. 30, 2001)