It looked like a sheep, but.. it's a Clone!!! - How many mor

[paris.]

President Bush has passed some legislature banning human cloning in the United State. I am sure he also thinks that this piece of leg. extends outward to the rest of the world also.
Doesn't matter anyway -- we didn't hear about the sheeps' cloning until after the fact. At that point everyone was so confounded (or rather dumbfounded) with the details that they didn't see
what actually happened -- the governments ultimate usurption in controlling the people, --- by being able to make some themselves.

Looking far enough ahead at this technology, we can probably foresee a future colony of droned sub-humans and perhaps a natural selection
post-mentality. Not too good to say the least, nor is genetic engineered food.

The cloning issue reminds me of the very ominous book "The Boys from Brazil," in that science has sci-fied itself once again and there is no turning back the clock with the knowledge in hand.









(Edited by Valkyrie at 9:02 pm on Aug. 5, 2001)

[Markxs]

power in the hands of evil ppl is always bad.......

but the question wich i am thinking of something like in the situation of cuba

they have a choice eat bio engineerd food that groes faster and will grow there. or not eating food (like fish ) att all

because of the boycot of course

also the bio technical and medicine research against cancer is becoming a export product of cuba. maybe via the way of this research, the ban maybe lifted.

( companys in the western world are interested in their stuff, and they can trade food for medicine and tech. then )


everything for the good of cuba wich is the same as for poornes in the world

[RedCeltic]

I don't think we are in a shortage of humans... I can't realy see when cloning humans can become nessesery...

[Markxs]

well we are not in a shortage for humans but in shortage of rich and stupid ones according to bush

some ppl like adolf hitler and bush are always looking for the 'perfect human being' (you know white ones with blue eyes )

offcourse we feel like there isnt a shortage for human beings, doesnt change anything for the fact that there will be searching for them

( and i am not a nazi or anything the perfect human being was ment ironical )

(Edited by Markxs at 6:02 am on Aug. 5, 2001)

[pce]

an interesting movie on this topic is "gattaca"

[Nickademus]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:44 am on Aug. 5, 2001
I don't think we are in a shortage of humans... I can't realy see when cloning humans can become nessesery...

please don't take this as my point of view because i am against cloning, genetically engineered food and everything in that sense . .. . . .

cloning will allow us to have other organs etc. there will no longer be a shortage of kidneys etc. when someone gets sick they get a new one from thier cloning dna (it will always be a perfect match).

cloning will allow gay/bisexual couples have children (as well as heterosexual families who can't have children).

I know there are more reasons i just can't think of them all right now. i'll get back to you.

[RedCeltic]

While cloning people for parts seems like a good idea in theory... it's a political and moral mine field... but you are right... there is a need for human parts with such a lack of donners.

As for Homosexuals having kids... well they are trying to keep them from adopting which I think is wrong. And if people see Homosexuals as having a defect... will they even let them clone themselves?

This gets into the relm of thought Markxs was aluding to about the Natzies and a master race... if they did clone people... Wouldn't it be easy for someone to clone perfect people while preventing people with "defects" from reproducing?

But back to Homosexuals adopting... orphanages are over crouded with children who only need a loving caring home to live in... and people will deny that right because the loving couple are the same sex!!! Leting Homosexuals may fill their desires to have offspring but it does nothing for the orphans... in fact it makes their situation worse...

[Nickademus]

i completely agree with you redceltic i was just pointing out what someof the arguments for cloning are

[paris.]

There is not the least bit of corporate interest behind these proponents of cloning though they base their arguments on tbe need and availability of spare organs. they fail to mention that organ cloning can be done without cloning the whole human being and from an evolutionary standpoint, cloning by-passes the natural process of selecting genes to keep the gene pool alive and would ultimately evolution would be impaired.

Advanced Cell Technology (apparently a research facility or maybe just a clonging factory) reported successfully cloning a human embryo in November 1998. DNA was removed from the skin of a man's leg and inserted into a cow's egg which previously had the nucleous removed. The reserachers allowed the cloned embryo to develop for 12 days before halting the experiement.

The ethical question to raise is - had this embryo been allowed to develop to full-term, what the hell do you tell this human being thereafter, - that his mother is a cow!!! and his father, though human, a piece of leg skin??!! Which leads to wonder of how far they are into experiments of cross-species cloning?

several other clonings have been done to harvest stem-cells which have the potential to develop into any kind of cell in the human body. The stem-cells need to be extracted from the embryo during the first two weeks of development otherwise they develop into specific cells and are then compromised for usage.

As to the other arguments in favor of cloning: there is still in-vitro fertilization for sterility and gay couples who want children; and male homosexuals are probably the biggest depositors to sperm banks, thus leaving behind much progeny in their wake.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Nickademus on 11:10 am on Aug. 5, 2001
i completely agree with you redceltic i was just pointing out what someof the arguments for cloning are

Oh I know... :smile: It's good to hear both sides of the argument.

[Rosa]

well...why do you think that homosexuals are having a defect? ...that's what scientists are trying to proove...but I think that homosexuality is culturaly provided, too: Would some person which lives in western society be a homosexual in eastern?...in West "a man" has to be strong, initiative, tough etc, but what if he isn't? wouldn't than be much easier for him to choose an "alternative world" where he can be gentile, estethic etc.? That theory of "genetics based homosexuality is pretty adolfish too, you know?Belive that you weren't studying that so much, and bcs of that I'm trying to explain my point....(have a lot moore, if you're interested about theese things) If not - previous would be simplification of my point. + remember the ancient greeks?

[RedCeltic]

Rosa:

Homosexuality is all over the world... it's not exclusive to western society. Why does it appear that there are more homosexuals in western society than in eastern? Because in western society they are able to be open about who they are.

Believing that if a man isn't "Tough" he would choose to sleep with men is proposterous. Not all homosexuals fit the limp wristed fairy steriotype...

In Ancient Greece... it was common among the ruling class to practice bisexuality... that is... before marrage, a man practiced sex with another man. What's your point about that hmm?

[Rosa]

that you can't call all af the greeks "having a genetic defect". About E&W culture: I'm saying that would the same person, which is homosexual per exmpl in E , be a Homsx in the W? 'm not so shure.

[RedCeltic]

Well... I don't quite like calling it a "Defect"... but... I think if a person lives in a society that's not open to homosexuals... and than moves to one that is... and suddenly says they are gay... I think they where gay all along... but didn't have the freedom to even consider if they where homosexual or not.

[Rosa]

I really don't think that there is such a difference in pleasure when penis is penetrating in vagina, and when it goes to the anus. haven't convinced me that it's based in phisical atributes like constelatoin of genes etc.

[RedCeltic]

I can't convince you to think a paricular way... nor do I plan on doing that... I'm only voicing my opinion, and considering I personaly know homosexuals, I have a strong opinion.

People who are against Gay rights will tell you that people who are homosexual, are so because the "Choose" to lead a lifestyle of "Sin"... meanwhile people who are homosexual say that they have always been atracted to the same sex... even if previously fooled into playing the role of a staight male or female.

As a straight male perspective... I can assure you... I wouldn't think sticking it into a male's anus if I couldn't find a female's vagina...

[Rosa]

But in the dark room, it wouldn't matter? ...trying to say that people, if not socialised, maybe wouldn't be homsx if its not insufficiency of women. like: there is no " a gay-dog", they are gays when there's no females. Still think that the culture is making gays, not the nature. And I'm also experienced about that: lived with a gay, and analysed his personality and relations with others, had a girlfrend and analysed that relation etc. An Interesting area, that's for shure....(and am not one of those who consider them an evil ones.)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Rosa on 8:40 pm on Feb. 21, 2002
But in the dark room, it wouldn't matter?

Rosa, this is about more than a dark room . . . many people, both heterosexuals and homosexuals, try to find people that they would like to spend the rest of their lives with, and I can assure you that very few of them are planning on spending the rest of their lives in a dark room. I go to college, and it's not a very well-kept secret that lots of the sorority girls hook up with each other. But once or twice a year when the 25-30 year olds who used to be in the sorority will come for a visit, it doesn't look like a single one of them is with another woman. Purely sexual pleasure is one thing, but real attraction is another.

[Rosa]

Ok, see your point, glad that you all like my sex so much,and that it REALLY attracts you.
Just think that I'd rather choose some normal girl then a creep guy, if I have to choose between them.
A nice guy would my choice if the other alternative is a moronish girl. Just think that sex is not a good base for loving someone....aahh, ok, ok, love the boys, admitting.

[Young Turk]

Okay..As University ethics classes all across the globe start to dispute and discuss cloning I have a few points and questions to add:

first a correction
1)there are gay dogs, the idea that homosexuality is "unnatural" is pretty much void since almost all species of mammals have been recorded participating in "homosexual behaviour" if that's what you want to call it.

here are some other cons to consider

1)a child cloned by parents to replace a dead child they already had...that could lead to some real problems for the clones and only a temporary solution to the grief the parents are trying to deal with. Lemme put it this way; if a set of parents are emotional enough to clone a child that died (and the will try) they will no doubt also be disallusioned by the superficial replacement they had. And once again, though it's possible that some people could come to terms with it just picture what the parents would tell the kids; "Timmy died when he was 4 so then we had you, he was the same as you and so we named you Timmy too..so now we have you again!" fucked up...anyone with a simple understanding of psychology OR and amount of empathy in their soul knows that this is an unhealthy choice if the parents could still concieve the normal way.

2) Here's another problem that would come up if cloning ever becomes commonplace. Families (whoever they may be) won't necessarily try to breed some kind of super-human everytime. There are every kind of people in the world and eventually (probably quite often) people will clone humans with know birth defects, handicaps etc. Now it's up to you if you think this is right or not but I'll tell you one think, there are going to be a hell of a lot of people who think it's not. Across the world there will be clones with no legs, blind, autistic and the problem is, that although these are things that many people can overcome and go on to live satisfying lives through, there will be some people with real issues that they were chosen to be like that intentionally and we don't even need to get into how other people might treat them...

just a few of the more obscure points to think about