Ezln

[Die Rote Fahne]

So, as a supporter, I'd like to know what the OI section thinks of them.

[Imposter Marxist]

I support them...Alot. They were the group that "Radicalized" me, I guess. Whats not too like? I just wish they had more support, so they could take action.

[Nolan]

I'm shocked the Mexican government hasn't destroyed them.

[Invincible Summer]

I'm doing a presentation on them for a social movements class. After watching videos for research, I found myself on the brink of tears. Although they're no longer revolutionary by any means, they're so goddamned inspiring. Sigh....

[Bud Struggle]

I'm shocked the Mexican government hasn't destroyed them.

I am to.

On a purely practical level the do present a real political threat to the Mexican government but they are in a vastly poor region and they are not looking to separate themselves from Mexico and form a new country. And of course on the other hand the Mexican government has a much larger threat in the drug lords the seem to have taken over large segments of the country also.

Maybe it's just an allocation of resources issue--or maybe the government is worried that the Revolution may spread if attacked directly. Whatever the answer, the EZLN is doing an amazing job.

I buy their coffee--not bad, a little acidic, but great in the morning.

[RGacky3]

I'm shocked the Mexican government hasn't destroyed them.

THey've tried too, for years, heres how the EZNL survived (its no secret), Huge domestic public support, they had a great PR campain to let their cause be known, the rulling class media did'nt have a monopoly of information about them, also, lots of international support from various leftist groups.

And of course on the other hand the Mexican government has a much larger threat in the drug lords the seem to have taken over large segments of the country also.

Maybe it's just an allocation of resources issue--or maybe the government is worried that the Revolution may spread if attacked directly. Whatever the answer, the EZLN is doing an amazing job.

I think its a combination, the drug lors are a much larger threat as far as law and order is involved, but as long as the Zapatistas stay in their area I think the Mexican governemnt realizes its much better to leave them alone, as soon as they attack, the Zapatistas will get tons of attention and support, whereas if they start spreading again and getting popular I guarantee the Mexican government will come back.

The EZLN is an awesome example of how the people won against the working class, its david vrs goliath x 100, unfortunately, any anarchistic revolution is david vrs goliathe x 100.

[ComradeOm]

On a purely practical level the do present a real political threat to the Mexican government but they are in a vastly poor region and they are not looking to separate themselves from Mexico and form a new country

On a purely practical (ie, military) level EZLN is a spent force. It had its back broken by the Army over a decade ago when it lost the war and, AFAIK, has never recovered. Today EZLN exists only on the whims of Mexico City. Whatever the reasons for the latter's leniency, I would be wary of eulogising their achievements too much

Whats not too like?

How about renouncing armed resistance, not that they had much choice mind, in favour of "political struggle through this peaceful initiative"?

[Nolan]

What about Marcos? I've seen people compare him to Guevara, but he hasn't really done anything yet. Isn't he some kind of libertarian Marxist?

[Invincible Summer]

What about Marcos? I've seen people compare him to Guevara, but he hasn't really done anything yet. Isn't he some kind of libertarian Marxist?

I believe he used to be part of the FLN which was a Guevara-inspired guerilla group. But yeah I'm pretty sure he's a libertarian Marxist at the very least.

And what do you mean by "do anything?" He calls himself "Subcomandante" because he says the people should lead. He's just the PR guy really. All the communiques are written by him, and all the media stuff is done by him because he can speak English and Spanish, unlike most of the Zapatistas. He distributes his communiques to anyone that wants them, which has led to people posting them online and building the huge EZLN support base that we see now. I'd say he has done a lot.

[Bud Struggle]

On a purely practical (ie, military) level EZLN is a spent force. It had its back broken by the Army over a decade ago when it lost the war and, AFAIK, has never recovered. Today EZLN exists only on the whims of Mexico City. Whatever the reasons for the latter's leniency, I would be wary of eulogising their achievements too much

I totally disagree. They exist by their right as a free people. (I know it's un-RevLeftist) but Revolution will NEVER happen by bare knuckled working guys fighting army tanks. The EZLN is the Revolution of the future--they convince reasonably educated and thoughtful people that they have a better plan for living then the Capitalists do. If you think Revolution will happen any other way--you are fooling yourself.

Besides armed Revolution is sooooooooooo 19th Century.

[#FF0000]

I totally disagree. They exist by their right as a free people. (I know it's un-RevLeftist) but Revolution will NEVER happen by bare knuckled working guys fighting army tanks. The EZLN is the Revolution of the future--they convince reasonably educated and thoughtful people that they have a better plan for living then the Capitalists do. If you think Revolution will happen any other way--you are fooling yourself.

Besides armed Revolution is sooooooooooo 19th Century.

tbh I don't think Marx and them saw revolutions all involving out and out conventional warfare against the state anyway. Kind of a new phenomenon.

[Bud Struggle]

tbh I don't think Marx and them saw revolutions all involving out and out conventional warfare against the state anyway. Kind of a new phenomenon.

I don't know what exactly Marx envisioned--but Revolution, REAL Revolution is what actually WORKS to bring about a fair and just and equitable world--to think violence is necessary in this process is just archaic and foolish.

[Os Cangaceiros]

(I know it's un-RevLeftist) but Revolution will NEVER happen by bare knuckled working guys fighting army tanks.

You sir are truly master of the straw man.

[Bud Struggle]

You sir are truly master of the straw man.

Then that that must be Comrade Om--he's they guy that thinks the EZLN is spent.

[cb9's_unity]

I've tried to research on them but I haven't really found much.

My question is why hasn't the international left gotten more behind the EZLN and the communes? People like to talk more about the revolutions of the past and of the 'red' capitalist states of today than they want to talk about a movement that actually consists of bottom-up, anti-capitalist, and autonomous revolutionary communities.

Why isn't this treated like a modern day Paris commune?

[#FF0000]

I don't know what exactly Marx envisioned--but Revolution, REAL Revolution is what actually WORKS to bring about a fair and just and equitable world--to think violence is necessary in this process is just archaic and foolish.

Right. I think everyone would actually agree with this. I always saw straight up violence as very likely, but not 100% necessary for a revolution.

I think it is -very- likely, though. The EZLN had to do a fair bit of fighting in their time.

[Invincible Summer]

I've tried to research on them but I haven't really found much.

My question is why hasn't the international left gotten more behind the EZLN and the communes? People like to talk more about the revolutions of the past and of the 'red' capitalist states of today than they want to talk about a movement that actually consists of bottom-up, anti-capitalist, and autonomous revolutionary communities.

Why isn't this treated like a modern day Paris commune?

As for sources on the EZLN, there are actually a bunch. Here's a really good documentary: A Place Called Chiapas. Gotta thank the National Film Board of Canada for that.

Libcom also had a couple of good articles on them:
[FONT=&quot]http://libcom.org/library/zapatista-effect-cleaver[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://libcom.org/library/commune-ch...patista-mexico[/FONT]

and this article is pretty good: [FONT=&quot][/FONT]http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=582

And here is a list of EZLN communiques: http://www.struggle.ws/mexico/ezlnco.html

It is quite a wonder why the int'l left hasn't supported the EZLN more. Perhaps they're not "radical" enough, since they haven't called for the overthrow of the state or anything like that (well, not since their First Declaration). Also, they're more focused on just getting the indigenous peasants their rights and land, which some may say is "petit-bourgeois."

But if we support Palestinian resistance, Black Power, etc, why not Zapatistas?

[Os Cangaceiros]

There's also a pretty good book about them called Homage to Chiapas. It also talks about some of the other grassroots movements in S. Mexico, including the more militant EPR (Popular Revolutionary Army). I remember something about that organization gunning down a prominent Oaxacan police chief/official a couple years back after the unrest there.

[RGacky3]

I totally disagree. They exist by their right as a free people. (I know it's un-RevLeftist) but Revolution will NEVER happen by bare knuckled working guys fighting army tanks. The EZLN is the Revolution of the future--they convince reasonably educated and thoughtful people that they have a better plan for living then the Capitalists do. If you think Revolution will happen any other way--you are fooling yourself.

Besides armed Revolution is sooooooooooo 19th Century.

I absolutely agree with you 100%, the militias and armed vanguard groups are for the right wing and for places and times where wide spread communication and relatively free speach was impossible. The EZLN beat the Mexican government not because they had better guns, or more soldiers, its because they yelled louder and with more moral conviction, they did not let the Mexican ruling class twist the story or demonize them they did this to the point to where it was better for the ruling class to NOT fight them out of fear of a public backlash.

In my opinion, this is how revolutions happen, the most successfull strikes or occupations (which I consider mini revolutions) are the ones where they get peoples attention and they appeal to the general sense of morality that people have, and get public support.

I don't know what exactly Marx envisioned--but Revolution, REAL Revolution is what actually WORKS to bring about a fair and just and equitable world--to think violence is necessary in this process is just archaic and foolish.

First of, I could care less what Marx envisioned. But again I agree with you, the lesson the left should learn from the EZLN is that words work, also that idiotic idea that the poor and uneducated cannot organize themselves and run their own lives is rediculous, the Zapatistas, although being humble and simple people, run their own affairs just fine.

As far as violence, I am no pacifist, but I believe that violence is almost always counter productive, unless in clear self-defense, theres a reason why in large strikes and protests that threaten the ruling class the cops will almost always try and incite violence, it gives them something to use to demonize the left.

[Invincible Summer]

"[FONT=Times]It is not our arms which make us radical; it is the new political practice which we propose and in which we are immersed with thousands of men and women in Mexico and the world: the construction of a political practice which does not seek the taking of power but the organization of society. Intellectuals and political leadership, of all sizes, of the ultraright, of the right, the center, of the left and the ultraleft, national and international criticize our proposal. We are so radical that we do not fit in the parameters of "modern political science". We are not bragging … we are pointing out the facts. Is there anything more radical than to propose to change the world? You know this because you share this dream with us, and because, though the truth be repeated, we dream it together."

[/FONT][FONT=Times]From: http://www.struggle.ws/mexico/ezln/marc_to_cs_se96.html
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