we are fighting the wrong way

[drunktank]

I live in Greece
a rather mixed economy.

However, in my village there is
a different type of communism.

When someone kills a pig,
he distributes the meat
to all the villagers
(more to the poorer,
less to the richer).

If someone has an orange tree,
he gives oranges to all your neighboors.
If he has not an apple tree,
his neighboors who have apples offer him.

Every morning the children
go to the factory of the rich man of the village
and he feeds them.

I think this is REAL communism
even if there are poor and rich people.


-

Where I want to get with this example?

I believe that a perfect society
is a society consisted of perfect people
no matter what the political system is.

So I think we shouldn't fight to change the system
but to change the quality of people.

We can have communism
only when people are good enough
to do what those villagers do.

And then we wouldn't need a revolution.

[pce]

i think you are absolutely right drunktank. there are no poor or rich really, because everyone shares and that's beautiful. and i don't know what else to say.....

[RedCeltic]

Drunktank..... I can''t agree with you more... If all people thought like that there would be no need for eutopian theories like communism. As I said to Pce in another thread... that's why we need to educate before we liberate. If the " Workers of the World Unite" as Karl Marx said... and thought the way people did in your example.... there wouldn't be a need for change.

I had a diffrent view of Greece when I was in Corfu and Rodes.

[filimarxist]

I've heard of philosophies like this before, stuff like this was developed by plato the greek philosopher, he said society would be better if it was run by the intellects of society and when they taught people how to be good citizens, now i like the idea of this, but it isn't as simple as that, if you give the elite power to dictate how to live your life, then your basically bending over for them, the tendency to abuse power in a society like that is even higher than socialism, look what happened to stalin, he would have made a great leader (read his books dialectical and historical materialism to see what i mean) had he not gone corrupt with power, besides plato was a right-winger.

[pce]

did i miss something filimarxist? i don't see how anything drunktank said had anything to do with intellects dictating society. his example was one of people living in peace with one another out of kindness. people help each other regardless of whether they are rich, poor, intellects, etc.

i also don't see how you can dismiss everything plato said because you say he was a right-winger (i dont know if he was or not) i think we should take the good ideas from whatever source they come from, even if it's from a right-winger.

[filimarxist]

These people druntank is talking about seems like some sort of society who dedicate their life to plato's teachings, and no not the teachings they practice in at plato's retreat in new york you pervs, anyway, that was just a theory.

[filimarxist]

Pce i'm just saying that there is a slight resemblance to plato's teachings, the end result of his perfect society is something like what drunktank said, and the right wing part i just said as a closing statement, and to add to that, i believe plato also supported the use of a monarchy as long as the monarch was an intellect.

[drunktank]

plato was not a right-winger
because at that time there
were not rights and lefts.

People in my village
don't know Plato
because most of them are just
uneducated farmers

-

pce, there ARE poor and rich,
and the rich don't share all their weath.
They just use it in profit of the poors.
_

With the example of my village
I wanted to show
that we don't need a revolution
to live in a communistic society.

And we' re fighting the wrong way.
We need to become better
and make the others better
rather than making a revolution.

(Edited by drunktank at 4:09 pm on Aug. 4, 2001)

[Markxs]

well thats great that the ppl in your village are so sharing, but maybe if we have an econmic system like communism. the poor kids dont have to go the rich men to get food. they shouldnt be dependend on them to get it.

[paris.]

Groveling for food from the rich pretty much purpetuates the master/slave role. Though the mutual cooperation between the people seems ideal. (and I gotta say drunk tank, those must be some pigs you got over there, that they feed an entire village!!) Fair distribution of the money, resources and production and it would be well set for an easy transition to communism.





(Edited by Valkyrie at 8:39 pm on Aug. 5, 2001)

[pce]

come to think of it, drunktank is correct: there was no right or left during plato's time because the idea of right and left only came about after the french revolution because the reformists sat together at the left of the congress and the conservatives to the right.......(i hope i didn't switch those around)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from drunktank on 12:54 pm on Aug. 4, 2001
With the example of my village
I wanted to show
that we don't need a revolution
to live in a communistic society.

And we' re fighting the wrong way.
We need to become better
and make the others better
rather than making a revolution.

(Edited by drunktank at 4:09 pm on Aug. 4, 2001)

i diasagree with the idea that we don't need a revolution but i agree that we are fighting the wrong way. we have to change people, not the system. just because the system changes to communism doesn't mean the people are communists. we need to make it a revolution of the mind, not a revolution of the system

[Markxs]

we have to get rid of the leaders of the system, make the pppl see we have a point.

not changing the sytem or the ppl will help only both

[Nickademus]

a agree markxs but i think that they must be in logical procession. we need a revolution of the mind in order to help the revolution of the system be more successful.

[paris.]

hmm... simliar to what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Collapsing the cause; i.e. the economic system of capital, will collapse the ill-effect that it produces on society. Environment has shown to have more influence on predisposition than other contributing factors, even genetics.

As with Cuba, ---within a given few generations, the people who knew and supported the former status quo will be nil.




(Edited by Valkyrie at 12:06 am on Aug. 6, 2001)

[CheGuevara]

Yes, I don't like the idea of poor children groveling to the rich factory owner for food either. Not only for psychological reasons, but also for practical ones. Suddenly, the owner's factory goes up in flames because of a carelessly disgarded cigarette(or some other chance event, you get the idea), and suddenly the owner is bankrupt, and the poor children are screwed. Therefore this stuff about not changing the system is hogwash. However, it is critically important to change the people while we are changing the system. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this Che's idea that he expressed in 'Socialism and Man in Cuba,' that of a man motivated by non-materialistic incentives to work hard for the benefit of society?

[pce]

i don't think changing the system requires a physical revolution either. ther can be a revolution of the mind of the system as well. this is done by changing the mind of the people who help the system progress (presidents, senators, etc.) i don't think you'd be allowed to live very long in a capitalistic world if you openly try to change the mindset of the people from capitalism to socialism. you need friends in higher governmental positions on your side. your right, just overthrowing the current system and replacing it with a socialist one will not change anything, because the capitalist oppostion still exists. you have to adjust the system slowly until it is completely gone (so there is no possibility of a counter-revolution), not overthrow it suddenly.

[drunktank]

So we should all start changing
beggining from ourselves.

What is the first step?
CLOSE THE PC

[CheGuevara]

Well gentlemen, I believe you've stayed on the train a bit too long. You really wanted to get off at the democratic socialist station. I'll believe the capitalist can be changed into a socialist one and then a communist one when ANY third party wins the US Presidential election. Oh, by the way Jesu...er, I mean Drunktank, you first with that close the PC suggestion.

[booga]

CLOSE THE P.C.! DRUNKTANK ARE YOU OUTTA YOUR DRUNK MIND? what will i do for entertainment? i hate television. and where do you hide your p.c.?

there is a passage in the bible that totally intrigues me.
it's when Jesus quotes: if you son asks for an egg do you give him a scorpion?

lets get real, Jesus would be the first person to disagree with "religion" after all he refered to church people as "self-righteous" (good or bad?) and that he came especially for those needing help.
think about this: if che used marxism as a tool to help him well why cant we use "the living word" as a tool to help us?

God bless us all and help us too.