is it possible?

[pce]

do you think, given man's greed up to this point and the fact that none of the revolutions have been completely successful, that it is actually possible to bring about a truly utopian communist state? can it be done? is it just a noble cause that many will die for to no conclusion? can a system like capitalism that has evolved over many many years be toppled by any single revolutionary turn of events?

[Markxs]

marx saw it as a cycly after capitalism and if ppl get to eat the bos his leftovers, the time the normal man doesnt take it anymore comes. then we have a rev. ( we are here like che said to accelareta the situation we must be the turbo-boost, on the cycle when our time comes.(not that we are going to wait for it ). we must educate like helll and make the ppl see that we dont want to go back and make sure all the poor of the past stay true to the cause and dont, become the capi's they once so hated.

respect equality liberation imagine

[drunktank]

Marx believed in science.
In science a correct theory
is always proved bye an experiment.

Marxism is a theory that was
not proved by the experiments.

The experiments were many.
Russia and its satelites, yugoslavia, Albania, Vietnam, China etc.

It's silly to follow a method
that failed again and again.

-

A perfect society
is that who has perfect poeple
no matter what the system is.

A moral kingdom is better
than an immoral communism.

-

I had said in a previous post
that I'm a marxist che-admirer.

Now, I am only a che-admirer.

peace


(Edited by drunktank at 2:35 am on Aug. 2, 2001)

[Markxs]

well marx theory wasnt proved because ppl wit power get absorbed by that power and dont stay true to the cause. thats why i dont believe in power and hierachy and communism has unfortunatly a very hierachy system ( dictator of the proleteriat). i think ppl should be there own dictator no one knows how to serve the ppl better then themselves. (when they are helped to get educated and un-brainwashed )

respect equality liberation imagine

[pce]

you make some interesting points drunktank, and i have a few comments....

1) you are right, it is scientifically silly to try the same experiment over and over. how ever this isn't what has happened. each example you speak of (russia/satellites, yugo, alb, vietn, china,etc.) did not go into the experiement with the same equipment, so to speak. in a scientific experiment, everything is written down, if the experiment is tried with different people/tools/subjects/etc. it is not the same experiment. in this sence, none of the experiments for the theory of marxism have been the same experiment. each have been different, and each have approached the theory in a different way and have aimed it towards different people.

2) science doesn't ever give up. just because one approach doesn't work, it doesn't mean that it will never work. you have to constantly re-evaluate. the very nature of science is that it doesn't ever stop. nothing is ever written in stone. science promotes scepticism and doubt, which is what helps it progress. just because marxism hasn't worked until now, it doesn't mean it will never work. i am also not saying that it definitly will. i don't know, that's why i started this topic....

3) i also agree that a moral kingdom is better than an immoral communism- however there is no such thing as an immoral communism. if you have communism then it can not by definition be immoral. there can only be immoral dictatorships who CLAIM to be communisms.

i'm not say that marxism is definitly right....who knows, maybe communism isn't the best way because of something we can't even understand yet. maybe there is some other way no one has thought of yet. and maybe if we keep re-evaluating and experimenting, we will finally reach that goal of perfection, whatever it is......

-peace (pce ) all the way to you my friend

[Markxs]

well ok the communist( or fake communists ) are different, but they all have one thin in common that everybody must be equal but how to get there we use a boss, a dictator. are you saying that communism doesnt use a dictator of the ppl to archieve its goal?

still assuming it uses a 'dictator of the ppl'

maybe we should change the way of getting to this utopian world, maybe there is a way without bosses. were everybody has an equal vote and there is a direct-democracy.

when there are no bosses nobody is able to mess up the rev. because his equals will re-direct him/her.

maybe we can vote a council and we all have an equal vote on wich decsision is taken to help us all.

please tell me if you believe in the dictator of the proletariat and excuse me for my bad english

[pce]

what do you mean by "dictator of the people" markxs? do you mean someone who is the leader for a short time until true communism is formed and everyone is equal? or do you mean a dictator who says that is what he is doing but remains in power just for power?

there definitly has to be a leader at first. i don't think everyone will all of a sudden rise up by themselves. but has anyone so far been a leader to lead the people to true communism, or have they all been just dictators who just want the power?

i hope you can understand what i am trying to say. this is the best way i can put it.....

[Markxs]

i defintly got what you mean

so let me think.........

ok at first there is somebody (the leader), he has true ideals and wants to help his ppl. then he is in power and the power pulls at him to helping himself not his ppl. this is what happend in (almost) all communist states.

so if we have this leader we must make sure he stays humble to his ppl. but thats not possible since the ppl dont have power.

i think we therefore need some ppl who are true to the ppl but dont become 'dictators'and every move of them is voted (directly!) a more democratic form.

( i dont mean election and after x years another one )

i mean the 'leader' wants to do something to help the ppl, let the ppl vote about that.

we can discuss the topic with everybody and then we have a vote the 'leader' tries to get everybody on one line and then we all decide what is going to happen.

all ppl can be leaders and not after a while, ( all ppl will be stimulated to think)

please tell me what you think about this

[RedCeltic]

While I agree with some of Marx's writings I do not lable Myself as a marxist. In fact.. I lable myself as a Socialist and not a Communist. However I am not set on what I believe in... only the fundementals. Just as Drunktank was brave enough to admit that he changed his view on Marx... I am always learning so refrain from allying myself to any one historic figure's views.

I think Communism failed in the Soviet block nations because of two factors. The least important in my eyes but most noticable to people is the use of one party systems that result in dictatorship. People fealing as though they have no say in a govt. will see it as oppression no matter how bennifical your platform is.

The second and I think the most important factor is Industrialization. When Karl Marx wrote about Communism he wasn't envisioning a third world nation, not envisioning Russia... he was envisioning Germany. He was envisioning the United States... he was envisioning Communism as a progressive step after the industrial revolution.

The industrial revolution brought factories and over crowded cities. People moved out of the fields and into factories. Communism was ment for these nations where the workers produced more than was consumed. Where workers had the skills to run the factories and mills themselves.

Russia was just entering the industrial age. It was behind the times. The Russian worker was only briefly in the industrial period and had recently been liberated from serfdom. How can you take a non industrialized nation without high production rates and try to fastfoward it to Communism? You can't...

While not a Communist... I view a Communist world as a place we will eventualy arive. While my belief of what's needed today is education of the masses and the creation of a truely united labor movement in the United States. The United States knows nothing of a United Labor Movement... Unions are week, corupted, and powerless.

[Nickademus]

[quote]

1) you are right, it is scientifically silly to try the same experiment over and over. how ever this isn't what has happened. each example you speak of (russia/satellites, yugo, alb, vietn, china,etc.) did not go into the experiement with the same equipment, so to speak. in a scientific experiment, everything is written down, if the experiment is tried with different people/tools/subjects/etc. it is not the same experiment. in this sence, none of the experiments for the theory of marxism have been the same experiment. each have been different, and each have approached the theory in a different way and have aimed it towards different people.
[quote[
pce . . .i agree. in scientific experiments the conditions of the experiment are controlled. we can't do such in society. because people are so accustomed to capitalism there is definately an uphill battle. naturally a communist society taking over for a capitalist society will have problems. because humans have feelings/emotions/thoughts/baggage, human 'experiments' can never be controlled. since in each "experiment" of communism the circumstances have been different, we haven't been trying the same experiment over and over again (please bare with me if this is fairly unintelligable as i am fairly drunk)




(Edited by Nickademus at 8:10 am on Aug. 2, 2001)

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Nickademus on 2:08 am on Aug. 2, 2001 (please bare with me if this is fairly unintelligable as i am fairly drunk)

:biggrin: I know what that's like... when I was in the Navy I used to debate history and politics in bars... so as long as I envision you slurring, I'll understand you fine :wink:

[Nickademus]

why thanks for that !!!