capitalism and capitalists

[pce]

i am just learning about communism so bear with me if i'm wrong about things...

what i think is that the people such as g.w. bush, reagan, eisenhower, etc. who many people here call "evil" are not truly evil. i'm sure that if any of these men saw a man starving in the streets, they'd show sympathy. i think it is only when these so called "evil" men become part of a capitalist system that they do evil for the good of the system, much like with banks in the Grapes of Wrath. the individuals don't want what the system wants but are only swept up in the system's hunger for money and power because they work in the system. i don't know if i'm making sense but i think i will if you've read the grapes of wrath. what do you guys think?...

[Guest]

Nope, ALL three evil. All buds off the same branch or in GW's case -- Bush. He he. A chip off the old block.

Reagan is getting his due. He he. What you give out, you get back-- 10-fold!

[RedCeltic]

I had called Regan evil in the forum " Why is Che so important". In truth I don''t think anyone is purly evil, for I don't think anyone is purly good. My calling Regan and G.W. Bush evil was mearly a refrence to their policies and is comparible to Regan calling the USSR an "Evil Empire". Regan didn't mean to say that everyone in the Soviet Union was evil.

Don't forget how Regan was anti working class and anti union. Remember how he ordered the Air traffic controlers back to work or he would have them fired? Remember how many actors where blacklisted because he turned them in for beiing communist?

However in life outside the relm of government Regan and Bush may be normal people with normal human compassion. To call them "evil" however is simply an exagerated use of languege to point out how awful their political theories are.

And then, if it is only the system that is evil and not the individual why have none of these men done anything good for humanity before or after their terms in office? Jimmy Carter has done more for the poor out of office than any of these men have done in or out.

[drunktank]

a. you are what you do.
If you do bad things, you are a bad man.

b. a bad system creates bad people.

c. power makes people bad.

d. to get high in a system like this,
you must have sold your mother's bones.

Yes, those people are awful.

[pce]

i guess what i mean is that the evil system raises the men in it, so the men aren't really evil, they just don't know better. we have to attack the system, not the individuals. i think this can be done better by teaching the individuals that the system is wrong. this way you go for the root of the problem. i think capitalism/imperialism is a way of thinking that is wrong.

[Guest]

i cant agree more with pce there.. capitalism is a way of thinking that is simply wrong. You know, here is an anicdote that happened to me not a few days ago....

i was walking in the street with my friend who i have known for years, and if there is anything about this man i dont like, it is his narrow mindedness and weakness of character, but ohter than that he is a decent human being. Now i was trying to explain to him why i believe in socialism, and after much talk, he replied 'Yeah, but i dont want anyone to take away my hard earned money from my poket'. Now this reply i could hardly believe... in exclamation is said 'So you would rather hungry people like you, beg, starve, die in the streets, because you would refuse to let them share in your fortune?'

now this only made me realise one thing, and that is how evil the system is. Itwas my own reply that got me thinking, and my freind is not an evil or bad man, but he has been brought up with and breast fed this good-government bullshit from the day he was born.

And anyone of you out there who would say that a man, system, way of thinking, party or theory that can let one man eat and one go hungry when the latter is just as good a human being as the former is not evil, are either lying, or part of the system yourselves

[pce]

i've know countless people who i've viewed as pretty kind hearted people. but once it gets to politics, they seem to turn around 180 degrees and quote all the views of the guest poster's friend.

[RedCeltic]

I remember reading about the difference between the Puritans and the Quakers.
The Puritans believed that most people are basically bad while Quakers believe
All people are inherently good. Because I believe strongly in the former it is
Hypocritical of me to call someone "Evil".

" There is no man that is poor that is not poor because of his own shortcomings"
is a statement made in the 19th Century referring to the masses of New York’s poor in
slums like the Irish in Five Points. I think this sums up the view that if America is the
land of opportunity, than those who don’t succeed are lazy or there’s something wrong
with them.

This damaging view is not just the view of the rich. Many poor turn away from help
(like shelters for homeless) due to pride, and the brainwashed thinking that they are
getting what they deserve.

I also believe strongly with what E.V. Debs said in one of his presidential campaigns
"All men are potential Gods." I take this to mean that everyone has the ability to change
the system. Therefore it is my belief that to win the war on Capitalism, it is not the facilitators
of the corrupted system that we need to fight, nor the corporations, but the way the poor think
that there is no better way, and they get what they deserve from capitalism. Also to believe
that something or someone could truly be evil is to believe that something or someone can
Truly be good or perfect. I have yet to meet a truly perfect person. Yet I rephrase what I said
before, that I use the word "Evil" to describe people and things I have a distaste for. It’s the
wrong word to use I realize.

[pce]

some very interesting thoughts redceltic. here's what i think. when there is a serial killer on the loose, you don't just try to save the victims, you also try to find and stop the serial killer so you can stop him. the poor are a victims of the system. not only should you try and help them reach enlightenment, but you should also try to stop the system from influencing and damning others to come. how you do this? i don't know yet....

it's through a combination of both ways of advance that true freedom and equality will come about

[RedCeltic]

good analogy pce. I mearly ment that the people should first be made to realize the truth about the system before you atack the system. Only when all the workers of the world are united can the system ever be toppled. Capitalism today is a global monster able to stretch it's tallons across the globe in mili seconds. In this way the worker must become as global. That's why I think we need education and then liberation.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 5:09 am on July 31, 2001
I mearly ment that the people should first be made to realize the truth about the system before you atack the system.

I agree with this statement RedCeltic. I was recently on other BB for groups i thought were interested in human rights. i was dismayed to find out that most of them were americans who had no idea what the united states government was all about. i recommended some chomsky for enlightenment in hopes that they can see the problems caused and antagonized byt he US. Unfortunately the US is the largest political power in the world right now and it is only once the American citizens themself realize what is going on that change from within can occur
---
"Needles to say, th[e] truth is inexpressible, indeed unthinkable."

[pce]

you're absolutely right redceltic. i only mean that if you can make the puppets of the system, who help promote it further, realize that they're wrong, it will be easier to enlighten the masses because there wouldn't be as strong a push towards capitalism.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from pce on 3:16 pm on July 31, 2001
you're absolutely right redceltic. i only mean that if you can make the puppets of the system, who help promote it further, realize that they're wrong, it will be easier to enlighten the masses because there wouldn't be as strong a push towards capitalism.

Good point Pce... I don't want to sound like just another Yankee bashing on the south again... however much of the mindset I see down there is of the " whatever the Republicans say" mind. The north isn't any better... however, with the Republicans electing Bush... the party seems to have moved away from the moderates and have moved into deeper right field. This may be what the Bible belt has dreemed of... but it alienates the north. Therefore I think the time is ripe for a strong third party to stand up and expose the system for what it is.

[El Che de Boca Jrs]

Capitalists arent necesarily "evil" (a lot of them are though), they are just ignorant and havent yet realized the horrors of capitalism and the true meaning and cause of socialism. Some of my family members are rich and capitalist but they are not bad people, they arent racist and dont look down on people who are of lower social class. The truth is, most of the world has no fucking clue of what communism is, they believe that it is simply "dictatorship", youl notice that a lot of people who are against communism compare it to fascism when what is really closer to fascism is capitalism because there is less equality and people who are born poor and with lack of benefits generally stay that way all their lives under capitalism (unless they are really lucky or work their asses off bo be the same thing rich beople are born as without working at all, another proof of how fucked up capitalism is). A lot of people think America is "the land of the free" simply because you can vote for your leader but it is actually much less free for the middle class and the poor (and lets not forget that they also count the votes of racist, right-wing and rich greedy people). In general, there are a lot of capitalists who are indeed evil and are against socialism because they dont want to lose their luxurys and couldnt give a fuck less about people dying of hunger and some people are just blind to true facts. I completely agree with Red Celtic, it is definitely going to take much more than a forced revolution to destroy capitalism, we have to educate people, make them aware that we are doing this for their own good and the good of humanity. We have to make people believe in our cause to make the revolution more swift and unchallenged. One thing that would work really well is sending flyers to poor people convincing them that they deserve better than what they have and there is no reason for them to live as second class citizens. Once a good following, we have a revolution.

[Nickademus]

[quote]Quote: from El Che de Boca Jrs on 7:45 am on Aug. 2, 2001
The truth is, most of the world has no fucking clue of what communism is, they believe that it is simply "dictatorship", youl notice that a lot of people who are against communism compare it to fascism when what is really closer to fascism is capitalism because there is less equality and people who are born poor and with lack of benefits generally stay that way all their lives under capitalism (unless they are really lucky or work their asses off bo be the same thing rich beople are born as without working at all, another proof of how fucked up capitalism is). A lot of people think America is "the land of the free" simply because you can vote for your leader but it is actually much less free for the middle class and the poor (and lets not forget that they also count the votes of racist, right-wing and rich greedy people).


the problem is partially the education system. in canada we have to go to school until 16, and all i remember about highschool is that communism/marxism/socialism are BAD. many people live this lie without looking into it further. the education system also has to change

[filimarxist]

che said that a good guerrilla army is nothing until you have earned the trust of the people, you should educate them about your cause and why there is for a revolution, propaganda for the guerrilla army should always be truth and if it is accepted by the peopl it means your cause is good.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from filimarxist on 8:42 am on Aug. 2, 2001
che said that a good guerrilla army is nothing until you have earned the trust of the people, you should educate them about your cause and why there is for a revolution, propaganda for the guerrilla army should always be truth and if it is accepted by the peopl it means your cause is good.

but che also said you have to educate the RIGHT people. urban society is not the place to start a revolution. you have to start with the rural people, people who are more likely to be distanced from the gov't and the police etc.

plus, the people who are "elected" in the appearance of the choice of the people are going to be harder to overturn because people believe there are still legal means to change. i agree with this. if people think the legal/justice/gov'tal system can change things, they won't become revolutionary, and won't support guerillas etc (sorry about my horrible spelling)

[RedCeltic]

All the last three posters made some good points. Education of the poor seems a good idea... I think poor in both urban and rural parts however...

You are right what you say about the Education system.. it is the same in the U.S. I had never understood how basing a public school system on property taxes makes sence. The poor communities have poor public schools... the ones that need public school the most. How do you keep the poor in line and complacent with the system? Keep them ignorant and dumb.

[Nickademus]

a agree redceltic that that is largely what the public school system does to the poor but it also keeps people in general ignorant. like i said i didn't learn anything good abour communism etc in school. and not to seem mean to you americans on the group here, but the american school system in particular is pretty good at keeping the US isolated from the rest of the world. i've been to the US numerous times, and very few even had a clue that canada was a huge country above them

[El Che de Boca Jrs]

Thats true, a lot of people I know have never ben anywhere outside of the US even though they are rich and could probably travel all over the world. One person thought my country (Argentina) and Mexico were the same thing. A lot of americans are just isolated in their rich world and dont know about the poverty and overpopulation happening in other countrys (no offense to anyone, I assume nobody here is the way I described above)