Unofficial t-shirts reveal IDF mentality

[Scary Monster]

Many are, because thier job requires them to dehumanize the enemy, and because they are taught that people against the war are against them, and your language proves it.

I think blowing things up is fun to. And yes, people ask to hear my war stories, even other leftists, luckily mine don't involve blowing people up or killing anybody.

He "wouldn't be allowed to state the details", hahaha, okay. Either you made this up (not accusing you of that) or he made it up to impress you (most likely since it was a recruiter).

Im only "against" the ones that dont mind killing arab civilians. On the other hand, I admire how soldiers are brave enough to risk their lives for something they believe is doing the right thing- In this case, "fighting terrorists". Im anti war, but that doesnt mean I indisriminately hate all soldiers. Like I said before, many soldiers tend to be jingoist, at least most of the soldiers ive come across.

[StalinFanboy]

I think it's just as bad to say that all US Soldiers are backwards blah blah blah as it is to blame workers for their conditions. Just saying.

[Scary Monster]

Yeah, people think soldiers aren't allowed to talk about their job, but most soldiers love telling war stories.

Come on now,dont be dicks. What possible reason would i have to be making shit up?, ive asked one of my friends, whos in the army, if hes ever shot anyone over there. He simply said he wasnt allowed to tell me.
The recruiter said how he liked blowing up a house and how he loves his "baby", the abrams tank. I assumed he wasnt allowed to tell me the reason he blew the house up, since thats all he would say about it.

[Scary Monster]

I think it's just as bad to say that all US Soldiers are backwards blah blah blah as it is to blame workers for their conditions. Just saying.

And im just saying how many dont mind killing Arab civilians, even if they dont intend to kill them. I say many because those are mostly the type ive come across personally. And i didnt say all US soldiers.

[Robocommie]

Yeah, people think soldiers aren't allowed to talk about their job, but most soldiers love telling war stories.

I don't want this to sound combative, because I do want to try to understand. As a leftist to another leftist, why was it you decided to join the military?

[The Douche]

Im only "against" the ones that dont mind killing arab civilians. On the other hand, I admire how soldiers are brave enough to risk their lives for something they believe is doing the right thing- In this case, "fighting terrorists". Im anti war, but that doesnt mean I indisriminately hate all soldiers. Like I said before, many soldiers tend to be jingoist, at least most of the soldiers ive come across.

Fair enough. This post just made it seem like you were making a blanket statement:

And to think, some argue that our US soldiers are/could be allies of the working class! There is no way you can convince a jingoist, racist soldier to join the working class' cause. Fucking backwards pricks.

Come on now,dont be dicks. Why would i be making shit up?, ive asked one of my friends, whos in the army, if hes ever shot anyone over there. He simply said he wasnt allowed to tell me.
The recruiter said how he liked blowing up a house and how he loves his "baby", the abrams tank. I assumed he wasnt allowed to tell me the reason he blew the house up, since thats all he would say about it.

Whatever man. I'm just saying there is no rule against talking about what you did while deployed. You're not allowed to talk about what you're going to do. If you're friend said he couldn't talk about it, he probably just didn't feel like it. And the recruiter, like I said, was probably just trying to sound impressive.

I don't want this to sound combative, but I'm generally interested, as a leftist to another leftist, why was it you decided to join the military?

Its very complicated, and very personal. I am a poor and got kicked out of high school, I was working a minimum wage job with no benefits and no prospects, my parents were getting tired of dealing with me and told me I had to either go to school (which I couldn't afford) or move out (which I couldn't afford) so I joined the army since that would get me some extra money and allow me to go to school. I also joined because I was having a personal crisis because I had seen all the revolutionary projects I was involved with fail (the national organization I was involved in was disbanded by the party it belonged to, and I was let down on a personal level by comrades locally and nationally).

I knew I had made a mistake before I even left for training but by then it was to late, and the only way out was to get hurt or refuse to train, but then I would've had to face the same problems, plus the humiliation of letting down my family and the stigma of failing yet another thing in my life.


Now, after having been in the army for a little more than 4 years, and doing a tour of Iraq, I think it would be better to be homeless than to do what I have done...

[Robocommie]

Its very complicated, and very personal. I am a poor and got kicked out of high school, I was working a minimum wage job with no benefits and no prospects, my parents were getting tired of dealing with me and told me I had to either go to school (which I couldn't afford) or move out (which I couldn't afford) so I joined the army since that would get me some extra money and allow me to go to school. I also joined because I was having a personal crisis because I had seen all the revolutionary projects I was involved with fail (the national organization I was involved in was disbanded by the party it belonged to, and I was let down on a personal level by comrades locally and nationally).

I knew I had made a mistake before I even left for training but by then it was to late, and the only way out was to get hurt or refuse to train, but then I would've had to face the same problems, plus the humiliation of letting down my family and the stigma of failing yet another thing in my life.


Now, after having been in the army for a little more than 4 years, and doing a tour of Iraq, I think it would be better to be homeless than to do what I have done...

I won't judge you comrade. It's very understandable, I think, making the decision you made, many poor Americans make that same decision. This is what capitalism is, isn't it? It forces us to choose eating or our principles.

People like you remind me that I need to be more mindful of my prejudices against the military, because I've come to have a bad attitude about soldiers in general. It's quite easy to forget the many working class folks who have joined up to either find work or to get a chance at an education.

[Scary Monster]

Its very complicated, and very personal. I am a poor and got kicked out of high school, I was working a minimum wage job with no benefits and no prospects, my parents were getting tired of dealing with me and told me I had to either go to school (which I couldn't afford) or move out (which I couldn't afford) so I joined the army since that would get me some extra money and allow me to go to school. I also joined because I was having a personal crisis because I had seen all the revolutionary projects I was involved with fail (the national organization I was involved in was disbanded by the party it belonged to, and I was let down on a personal level by comrades locally and nationally).

I knew I had made a mistake before I even left for training but by then it was to late, and the only way out was to get hurt or refuse to train, but then I would've had to face the same problems, plus the humiliation of letting down my family and the stigma of failing yet another thing in my life.


Now, after having been in the army for a little more than 4 years, and doing a tour of Iraq, I think it would be better to be homeless than to do what I have done...

Dude, that sounds exactly like my life Im 21 right now. I fucked up in high school because i wasnt there half of the time. I dont have money for college, since i only have my mom, and minimum wage aint shit in california. so im in trade school right now as a paralegal. I finish trade school in a couple months, but ill be in huge debt. I didnt qualify for a loan (they tell me a single mother of 2 makin $40,000/year in cali is too much, plus i got shit credit), so i gotta pay the school before theyll give me my certificate. Its only because of their good will that they still let me attend, by having me at least make petty $50 monthly payments and some scholarships. A legal firm might hire me even though i wont have a physical copy of my certificate.

Anyway, I dont want to be depending upon my mom so much anymore, so im not sure what to do. I actually moved out a year ago and was livin with a girl and her son, who i got along with so well, and had a job, but im not good with women at all, so im back living with my momma So right now, i dont feel like i have much dignity, since im not living on my own, with a shit job and little advanced education (although I got in the habit of educating myself, which led me to become a marxist :P).

So what would you have done differently if you had instead chosen not to join the military?

[Robocommie]

Anyway, I dont want to be depending upon my mom so much anymore, so im not sure what to do. I actually moved out a year ago and was livin with a girl and her son, who i got along with so well, and had a job, but im not good with women at all, so im back living with my momma So right now, i dont feel like i have much dignity, since im not living on my own, with a shit job and little advanced education (although I got in the habit of educating myself, which led me to become a marxist :P).

Bah, don't think that way. You sound plenty dignified to me. You're doing what you have to do to get by. A LOT of Americans are living with their parents these days, even college graduates. There's no reason to be ashamed.

[The Douche]

So what would you have done differently if you had instead chosen not to join the military?

Who knows, would've stayed in that job while waiting for a better one to open up.

Maybe my parents would've put me out, maybe not...beats me.

[Devrim]

Fuck These IDF and zionist parasites have no shame?

In my barracks in basic training there was a murual painted on the wall by the drill sergeants, it depicted and air assault and some US soldiers killing arab men set in an arab town. Not really suprising...thing was, none of the arabs had weapons,

As 'Cmoney' explains this is not something that is limited to Israel, or to the US for that matter. It is something that happens in all bourgeois armies.

And to think, some argue that our US soldiers are/could be allies of the working class! There is no way you can convince a jingoist, racist soldier to join the working class' cause. Fucking backwards pricks.

Many workers are also jingoists and racists. It is not a question of people being 'backwards', or even of ideology. It is about material conditions.

Amongst the soldiers who made the revolution in Russia in 1917 were some who had joined up in 1914 in the name of God and the Tzar.

And I am sure that amongst US soldiers who fragged their officers and mutinied in Vietnam were those who had previously gone out and shot down civilians and later laughed about killing a few 'gooks'.

Devrim

[FreeFocus]

And I am sure that amongst US soldiers who fragged their officers and mutinied in Vietnam were those who had previously gone out and shot down civilians and later laughed about killing a few 'gooks'.

Devrim

And it would have been better, then, if these soldiers had decided to rot with their officers and fragged themselves also.

[The Douche]

And it would have been better, then, if these soldiers had decided to rot with their officers and fragged themselves also.

So you would find it better for the anarchist movement if I killed myself?

[FreeFocus]

So you would find it better for the anarchist movement if I killed myself?

Devrim talked about soldiers who fragged their officers having previously killed Vietnamese civilians and bragged about it. I was referring to them, that they should have decided to rot with their officers by fragging themselves as well.

[Scary Monster]

Many workers are also jingoists and racists. It is not a question of people being 'backwards', or even of ideology. It is about material conditions.

Amongst the soldiers who made the revolution in Russia in 1917 were some who had joined up in 1914 in the name of God and the Tzar.

And I am sure that amongst US soldiers who fragged their officers and mutinied in Vietnam were those who had previously gone out and shot down civilians and later laughed about killing a few 'gooks'.

Devrim

My beef is with the jingoists and racists that brag about killing people and taking their dignity, like the behavior of the IDF soldiers. Most workers/civilians, however racist or nationalist, dont usually systematically kill civilians, ya see. And i meant "backwards" as in their barbaric behavior and attitudes toward these people, not the fact that they might believe in a god or whatever. I dont know where you got that from.

[Devrim]

And it would have been better, then, if these soldiers had decided to rot with their officers and fragged themselves also.
...Devrim talked about soldiers who fragged their officers having previously killed Vietnamese civilians and bragged about it. I was referring to them, that they should have decided to rot with their officers by fragging themselves as well.

To me this denies the possibility that people can change, which logically also denies the possibility of revolution.

Devrim

[Devrim]

My beef is with the jingoists and racists that brag about killing people and taking their dignity, like the behavior of the IDF soldiers. Most workers/civilians, however racist or nationalist, dont usually systematically kill civilians, ya see.

But soldiers do kill people and brag about it afterwards, and not just in the IDF. Do you think that massive struggles can change people?

And i meant "backwards" as in their barbaric behavior and attitudes toward these people, not the fact that they might believe in a god or whatever. I dont know where you got that from.

Many people have racist attitudes. I believe they can change. That's why I am a communist.

Devrim

[Scary Monster]

But soldiers do kill people and brag about it afterwards, and not just in the IDF.

Yuuup, thats what i just said. I clearly used the IDF as an example. I never said only the IDF likes to kill innocent people.

Many people have racist attitudes. I believe they can change. That's why I am a communist.

Yes I believe that too. Of course people can change. I never said they couldnt. But an IDF soldier wearing a t shirt depicting the shooting of a pregnant palestinian woman, and soldiers in general that brag about killing civilians is sick shit which should be punished for. Their actions are what i meant by "barbaric behavior and attitudes", not simply because they were racist.

[The Douche]

Devrim talked about soldiers who fragged their officers having previously killed Vietnamese civilians and bragged about it. I was referring to them, that they should have decided to rot with their officers by fragging themselves as well.

I think this is a pretty immature stance to take.

How about Howard Zinn? He fought in WW2, he probably painted his exploits in a positive light at some period, should he "rot"? Did he not make a positive change, and then make a positive contribution to the world and the revolutionary movement?

[FreeFocus]

People can change, sure. They just have to do it before justice finds them, although I find some things irredeemable.