Thread: How should we model state-owned business from an economic point of view?

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  1. #21
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    [FONT=Verdana]
    Ok this thread doesn't make any sense. Please give a solid, explained example of what exactly it is that you're getting at with this Comrade Stalin, or it gets tossed.
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    [FONT=Verdana]Ok guy when I asked for you view, I asked on who it should be modeled from an economic point of view, not your view on how it should be run (thought they are nice to here), not if they can make a profit (thought it is nice that there are sources that say that you can make a profit), and Not or should there be or not be. It a very simply question how from a economic point of view should state-owned business should be modeled from an scientific economic point of view. Now for those that asked, when I say State-owned business, I mean that government control 100 of the stock, without the ability to sell the stock to private persons. [/FONT]
    Stalin came to the Soviet Union when everyone laughed at her, and left with them only laughing with her.
  2. #22
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    >>[FONT=Verdana]Ok guy when I asked for you view, I asked on who it should be modeled from an economic point of view, not your view on how it should be run (thought they are nice to here), not if they can make a profit (thought it is nice that there are sources that say that you can make a profit), and Not or should there be or not be. It a very simply question how from a economic point of view should state-owned business should be modeled from an scientific economic point of view. Now for those that asked, when I say State-owned business, I mean that government control 100 of the stock, without the ability to sell the stock to private persons.<<[/FONT]

    Thank you for responding to my request in a mature fashion.
    However, you didn't provide any examples, you didn't give any opinion, you didn't insert any links, you merely repeated the same things. And it still doesn't appear to be from, or pertaining to, any revolutionary leftist perspective. This would be more suitable for a discussion in Opposing Ideologies, because it appears to be exactly that. Rather than trash this thread (as several members gave interesting and thoughtful posts) I shall move it to OI, and hope it takes off there.

    Moved.
  3. #23
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    >>[FONT=Verdana]Ok guy when I asked for you view, I asked on who it should be modeled from an economic point of view, not your view on how it should be run (thought they are nice to here), not if they can make a profit (thought it is nice that there are sources that say that you can make a profit), and Not or should there be or not be. It a very simply question how from a economic point of view should state-owned business should be modeled from an scientific economic point of view. Now for those that asked, when I say State-owned business, I mean that government control 100 of the stock, without the ability to sell the stock to private persons.<<[/FONT]

    Thank you for responding to my request in a mature fashion.
    However, you didn't provide any examples, you didn't give any opinion, you didn't insert any links, you merely repeated the same things. And it still doesn't appear to be from, or pertaining to, any revolutionary leftist perspective. This would be more suitable for a discussion in Opposing Ideologies, because it appears to be exactly that. Rather than trash this thread (as several members gave interesting and thoughtful posts) I shall move it to OI, and hope it takes off there.

    Moved.
    I don't know what example I could provided. I could say that we could model state owned business as a business witha 100% profit taxs, which is what I gave in my first post. But this did not work, so I am lost what example I could give you. I also don't understand how asking you a question on how to model state-owned busuness is an Opposing Ideologie.
    Stalin came to the Soviet Union when everyone laughed at her, and left with them only laughing with her.
  4. #24
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    Yes, we want a pwerful state. Control by the state IS collective ownership, and the only alternative is private ownership. I understand your reticent to accept the concept of complete state control. But this is only if you see the state as something separate from the people. In socialist society it is not. The democratic system would be very different from the USSR, which was seriously lacking in the democratic area. There would be term limits, strong oversight committees, and impeachment for any office by universal suffrage. You may be thinking, "We have all that now and it doesn't change anything." Well, now we have a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. It is run in their interests and by them. It will be the revolutionary proletariat who run the show, and not aiming for profit.

    There are situations that need to be addressed and anticipated. Some conditions that could reproduce capitalism would be not having a surplus of goods, having one group of people with sole control of the means of production with no democratic control, and the pull of the world capitalist market which has smashed many revolutionary states. A socialist state needs democracy like the human body needs air.

    Because of the democratic character of the way "business" is run, it will begin to wither away. Under capitalism there are plenty of things that are totally useless and unnecessary, like bosses and gasoline. But they are kept around for the sake of profit, not human need. Under socialism, we work toward need. So if there is something in that society that we don't need, it is gotten rid of, and something useful takes it's place. This goes in hand with the idea of capitalism being a fetter on society. This will take place in all corners of life, including the workplace. As the workers need the administration less and less, they take on the affairs and tasks of the administration more and more. And the management of these places will not be in the form of one-man management or edicts handed down from the head, but a unity between the governing body and the workers. Where they come together to make decisions gradually. You cant run industry with just the party or just the workers. This will lead us back to capitalism. Thus the whole thing will be gradually decentralized, but at first centralism is absolutely crucial for many reasons.
    So what you're saying is we need state ownership of the MoP (means of production), and the businesses to be run in a democratic way and any conditions that would allow capitalism to rise would need to be removed immediately? And how would the state withering away place the MoP into workers' hands? Because what you propose traps it into the hands of both, locked together, so the state/governing body (in addition to the workers) has a permanent hold of the MoP. Due to this, I don't think the state has much of a chance of disappearing if it embeds itself into every business.
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    So what you're saying is we need state ownership of the MoP (means of production), and the businesses to be run in a democratic way and any conditions that would allow capitalism to rise would need to be removed immediately? And how would the state withering away place the MoP into workers' hands? Because what you propose traps it into the hands of both, locked together, so the state/governing body (in addition to the workers) has a permanent hold of the MoP. Due to this, I don't think the state has much of a chance of disappearing if it embeds itself into every business.
    I could live with that, as long as it keeps 100% employment. But the question is on modeling it. Now you could give a model that said that goverment owenrship and private owenrship is bad. But I would like to see a model.
    Stalin came to the Soviet Union when everyone laughed at her, and left with them only laughing with her.
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    I could live with that, as long as it keeps 100% employment. But the question is on modeling it. Now you could give a model that said that goverment owenrship and private owenrship is bad. But I would like to see a model.
    I've got nothing against the idea of state-owned business, it's just if the state takes over everything, I can't see a clear path for the transition to communism, the stateless, classless society. I favor decentralization of the economy, not for all power to be concentrated into the hands of the state (even though that state might be doing things in the genuine interest of the workers). We plan to erase centralized power with the fall of capitalism, not bring it back in another ugly form.
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    Their may be a reason that the capitalist centralize power. From what I understand it is to control unemployment
    Stalin came to the Soviet Union when everyone laughed at her, and left with them only laughing with her.
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    I've got nothing against the idea of state-owned business, it's just if the state takes over everything, I can't see a clear path for the transition to communism, the stateless, classless society.
    There is a model of structure of the transition period (DotP) from capitalism to communism which includes a sector with state owning on the MoP (state-owned business). On these charts you can see how the state could "wither away".
    http://struggle.net/images/perehodKapKom-English.GIF

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/album.php?...pictureid=1849

    I have written a piece of post on this theme but because of error of my finger (I was ready to knock "him" by hammer) the text unfortunately was deleted. So more commentary I would post some day later.

    And I don't understand too why it is OI if it is direct revolutionary theory (i.e. true marxism)?
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    There is a model of structure of the transition period (DotP) from capitalism to communism which includes a sector with state owning on the MoP (state-owned business). On these charts you can see how the state could "wither away".
    http://struggle.net/images/perehodKapKom-English.GIF

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/album.php?...pictureid=1849

    I have written a piece of post on this theme but because of error of my finger (I was ready to knock "him" by hammer) the text unfortunately was deleted. So more commentary I would post some day later.

    And I don't understand too why it is OI if it is direct revolutionary theory (i.e. true marxism)?
    State capitalist communist sector...what? Isn't that contradictory?

    What I also don't like about this is that it seems to be built on the soviet system (or vice versa). Although I do understand about the market reforms that occured.
  10. #30
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    Is your question "what should be done to make sure companies in socialism remain effective in terms of cost/production"?
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    So what you're saying is we need state ownership of the MoP (means of production), and the businesses to be run in a democratic way and any conditions that would allow capitalism to rise would need to be removed immediately? And how would the state withering away place the MoP into workers' hands? Because what you propose traps it into the hands of both, locked together, so the state/governing body (in addition to the workers) has a permanent hold of the MoP. Due to this, I don't think the state has much of a chance of disappearing if it embeds itself into every business.
    Contradictions don't end with socialism. One ruling class, the proletariat, does not mean society becomes a homogeneous body, walking in one straight line on the yellow brick road to communism. There will still be just as much debate and tumult over how the new society should be run. First you have to contend with the fact that the majority of the populace will not be communists, so you will have to apply a mass line so the average person is routinely exposed to communist political thought. Then there are the divisions between physical and mental labor within the working class. The contradictions between the proletariat and the lumpen-proletariat (thieves, beggars, and soldiers). Then the division between administration and working class. The resolution of these contradictions will be resolved through conflict, probably even violence. Even the concept of the withering away of the state will not happen in one easy motion. This will be bitterly fought over. What is to be done is institutionalize radical measures that creates equal control of society between the administration and the people. If you have a society where the administration has total control, this will regenerate class distictions. If you have a weak central body where workers just manage themselves this all regenerates class distinctions.

    The administration/government are not the same as the state. The state is armed bodies of men, the legitimate armed force in any region. This includes jails, courts, police, and the military. The state exists solely as a tool for one class to suppress another. If the bourgeoisie no longer exist, and we have overcome class distinction and the social conditions that create them, then what will be there for? As for the administration, that probably never disappear all together. It must necessarily be embedded into production, and have a good measure of control over it's workings. This is necessary for a planned economy. How do you drive a car with no steering wheel? How can plan an economy with local soviets? How can you move society in the direction of communism, a classless, stateless, moneyless society with worker's direct democracy? It not only impractical, but will never overcome the social conditions which generate class distinctions. An administration will probably always be necessary in one form or another, but as the material conditions change, so too will the nature of government. The more the workers learn more about communism and the direction we are trying to go, they will take on more of the work the administration use to do. Again, society is no longer run in a way where everyone is competing for work, we are trying to eliminate that. Everyone does what they do because they want to, fighting for the means of subsistence isn't the reason people work anymore. And no one is an administrator for long, it will change all the time. So what does the particular person care if they don't get to be part of the administration anymore? Get a new job, any you want, we have universal employment! These things will disappear for the same reason everything else does, the conditions that created them will no longer exist.

    State capitalist communist sector...what? Isn't that contradictory?

    What I also don't like about this is that it seems to be built on the soviet system (or vice versa). Although I do understand about the market reforms that occurred.
    As sanpal said, capitalism and the capitalist mode of production are not the same thing. It is a capitalist communist sector, because it is a capitalist mode of production run on the communist economic model. We will still have things live "wages" and "capital" and "a market". They will not exist in the same sense at all, but will be similar phenomena operating in generally the same way. But they are still antagonistic to socialism, and will have to be broken down. This can never really be done without international socialism. And yes, this is similar to the soviet model. We will necessarily have to take aspects of the soviet model, but of course not all or even most of it. Take the good, leave the bad, do better next time.
    Last edited by btpound; 26th January 2010 at 00:27.
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  13. #32
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    Contradictions don't end with socialism. One ruling class, the proletariat, does not mean society becomes a homogeneous body, walking in one straight line on the yellow brick road to communism. There will still be just as much debate and tumult over how the new society should be run. First you have to contend with the fact that the majority of the populace will not be communists, so you will have to apply a mass line so the average person is routinely exposed to communist political thought. Then there are the divisions between physical and mental labor within the working class. The contradictions between the proletariat and the lumpen-proletariat (thieves, beggars, and soldiers). Then the division between administration and working class. The resolution of these contradictions will be resolved through conflict, probably even violence. Even the concept of the withering away of the state will not happen in one easy motion. This will be bitterly fought over. What is to be done is institutionalize radical measures that creates equal control of society between the administration and the people. If you have a society where the administration has total control, this will regenerate class distictions. If you have a weak central body where workers just manage themselves this all regenerates class distinctions.

    The administration/government are not the same as the state. The state is armed bodies of men, the legitimate armed force in any region. This includes jails, courts, police, and the military. The state exists solely as a tool for one class to suppress another. If the bourgeoisie no longer exist, and we have overcome class distinction and the social conditions that create them, then what will be there for? As for the administration, that probably never disappear all together. It must necessarily be embedded into production, and have a good measure of control over it's workings. This is necessary for a planned economy. How do you drive a car with no steering wheel? How can plan an economy with local soviets? How can you move society in the direction of communism, a classless, stateless, moneyless society with worker's direct democracy? It not only impractical, but will never overcome the social conditions which generate class distinctions. An administration will probably always be necessary in one form or another, but as the material conditions change, so too will the nature of government. The more the workers learn more about communism and the direction we are trying to go, they will take on more of the work the administration use to do. Again, society is no longer run in a way where everyone is competing for work, we are trying to eliminate that. Everyone does what they do because they want to, fighting for the means of subsistence isn't the reason people work anymore. And no one is an administrator for long, it will change all the time. So what does the particular person care if they don't get to be part of the administration anymore? Get a new job, any you want, we have universal employment! These things will disappear for the same reason everything else does, the conditions that created them will no longer exist.



    As sanpal said, capitalism and the capitalist mode of production are not the same thing. It is a capitalist communist sector, because it is a capitalist mode of production run on the communist economic model. We will still have things live "wages" and "capital" and "a market". They will not exist in the same sense at all, but will be similar phenomena operating in generally the same way. But they are still antagonistic to socialism, and will have to be broken down. This can never really be done without international socialism. And yes, this is similar to the soviet model. We will necessarily have to take aspects of the soviet model, but of course not all or even most of it. Take the good, leave the bad, do better next time.
    Let me just start with: you fucking own. You opened my eyes and I can't thank you enough.

    So what you're saying is that the workers themselves will eventually be the administration? And what sort of democratic system do you advocate (since you think direct democracy is impractical), and how will this be incorporated into the workplace?
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    Let me just start with: you fucking own. You opened my eyes and I can't thank you enough.

    So what you're saying is that the workers themselves will eventually be the administration? And what sort of democratic system do you advocate (since you think direct democracy is impractical), and how will this be incorporated into the workplace?
    I am really glad I could help. It makes me feel good to know I have helped someone understand these things a little better. If you ever have any questions feel free to ask me directly.

    There will be some measure of direct democracy, in the workplace, and probably a town or community. But you can't run a society like that. After all the ultimate goal of communism is to apply a planned economy to the entire world. You can never run an entire planet with direct democracy and local soviets. So there will be direct D for, lets say, election of managers, or local administrators. And for the president, the congress, the senate, but that's the reason you elect leaders like that because you can't take a vote on every little thing the administration wants to do. I think it was Trotsky who said democracy is a tricky thing, you can democratically decide the direction of a train, but not what to do in the face of a collision.
    "The emancipation of the working class will be an act of bears." - Karl Marx

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  17. #34
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    State capitalist communist sector...what? Isn't that contradictory?
    I'm sorry about lack of time to make thorough answer. I'll as much as I can. Contradiction, or dialectical contradiction is that engine which push the society into change. It is marxist point of view. As marxist theory says in the class society there is contradiction between labour and capital, between social/common character of production and private form of appropriation (owning of the results of production) this arouse the left movement to solve this conflict through emancipation of the working class by ceasing the working class to be class, transition from class society to classless one. The question is how to pass from class society to classless one? I won't waste time on nonmarxist point of view: -kinda to "kill" (to take away, to abolish) all capitalists and thus to convert class society into classless one. Revolution is the process of revolutionary transformation of capitalism into communism (not into socialism!!!) This process conform to transition period and this transition period could be nothing but dictatorship of the proletariat. The DotP, I call it Proletarian State is still class society, proletariat exists, owner (the State as combined capitalist) exists too. Though this combined capitalist takes 100% tax from itself to itself (formally to the society) contradiction between wage labour and capital (State interests) remains, and more, these contradictions are carried to an extreme degrees because of monopoly; the market mechanism based on the competition of different producers not work well; a state monopoly on the currency and bank system lets the state to manipulate and influence "in manual mode" what contradict to market self-regulating ; etc.
    But the main aim of the Proletarian State is creation of communist economic sector within of the Proletarian state (to imagine how communist sector is working is a separate talk). Taking into account moneyless/non-market/plan /self-management character of communist sector it should be separated from state-owned sector of economy which uses capitalist mode of production (money/market economy) with non-visible border between communist and state capitalist sector. I hope it's well illustrated in my album http://struggle.net/images/perehodKapKom-English.GIF. This multi-sectors structure of the Proletarian State keeps the same principle of dialectic development of the society. So there is no contradiction in the scheme of co-existing two (or three if to include small bourgeois sector) sectors of economy within one Proletarian State.

    What I also don't like about this is that it seems to be built on the soviet system (or vice versa). Although I do understand about the market reforms that occured.
    You could reread my posts in the thread "Is Socialism in one country possible?" where I tried to explain what was built in the former USSR and that not soviet system was guilty of failing of socialism but building socialism analogously of Duhring's model which was criticized severely by Engels in his "Anti-Duhring". There the dialectic principle was disturbed: one of the two opposites was ideologically abolished, ideologically but not practically and both opposites was put "on one plate" so this "yellow devil" like a worm inside an apple led the USSR to fail. To avoid this it needs to separate "flys" from "cutlets" with the different plates i.e. to create different sectors of economy within one Proletarian state.
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    Not to be understood uncorrectly, it seems some explanation should be done.
    Capitalism is not the same as capitalist mode of production
    Under the word "capitalism" I meant "bourgeois society" or "bourgeois social and economic structure" where the bourgeoisie is a ruling class. As it's known in the proletarian society the working class is a ruling class. Both the bourgeois society and the Proletarian society (DotP) do use capitalist mode of production: bourgeoisie - "forever"; proletariat - for a while (till the moment when a communist sector of economy created by the proletarian government will be increazed to the size of the whole society to replace (state-)capitalist sector). Capitalist mode of production is only the mode of production as economic category.
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    The true question is are you out of your fucking mind. The state can not run the economy nor force anyone to do in its place. State control of the economy has never created a prospering society. First off the 100% profit tax sounds ridiculous, how would anybody be payed or do you wish to pay the people then let the government come in and take all the rest and use it for its own benefit. I have never understood anyone who advocated a state after revolution. To continue a state or create a new one after revolution is to have failed b/c you leave the largest oppressive entity in humanity's history just with 1 all controlling party telling everyone how to run one's life and crushing all individual thought instead of today's systems. I mean if you are going to have a revolution why not have a real one not just a palace revolution replacing oppressors with new oppressors who say for the people a lot.
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    The true question is are you out of your fucking mind. The state can not run the economy nor force anyone to do in its place. State control of the economy has never created a prospering society.
    Be honest. Are you Glenn Beck? Cause you gotta tell us if you are. It's entrapment.

    State control has never created prosperity huh? What about the USSR? They went from a nation where there wasn't even bread to feed the people, to the richest nation in Europe. They did that with state control of industry. What about Yugoslavia? They became a very wealthy country, and moreover 80% of industry was publicly owned and operated with minimal state control, but no private control either. In fact, it is the free market that creates disparities in wealth. Look at Yugoslavia and the Eastern block now. Their economies have plummeted and people there have to work several jobs just to support themselves.

    First off the 100% profit tax sounds ridiculous, how would anybody be payed or do you wish to pay the people then let the government come in and take all the rest and use it for its own benefit.
    It probably wouldn't be 100%. There would probably be small businesses that would not be under state control at first. There will be a lot of the economy that won't be under state control at first. But we aren't going to cut them any slack either. Their taxes would be high, and their would be a minimum wage (probably something like 15 US Dollars/hour) that would make it hard for them to turn a profit too. There would be all kinds of regulation that would make it hard on business to thrive. But that's the idea. Fuck business. Workers in command.

    Also, the majority of the people are who will benifit from society. Not the state beaurocratic structure.

    I have never understood anyone who advocated a state after revolution. To continue a state or create a new one after revolution is to have failed b/c you leave the largest oppressive entity in humanity's history just with 1 all controlling party telling everyone how to run one's life and crushing all individual thought instead of today's systems. I mean if you are going to have a revolution why not have a real one not just a palace revolution replacing oppressors with new oppressors who say for the people a lot.
    You are entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with anarchists. I have a problem with capitalists. I have a problem with putting buisnessmen in command of society, and leaving the masses of people disenfranchised. It just so happens that the anarchist solution to society is typically recreating the conditions that created capitalism in the first place. That is limited government control over industry and a liaise-faire economy. That doesn't work. It's not a building or a system or a state that we are trying to get rid of. It is a series of social interactions.
    "The emancipation of the working class will be an act of bears." - Karl Marx

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    I don't see socialized enterprises that are owned in common by those who are affected by their activity as "state" enterprises per se. They're public enterprises in the sense of being owned and controlled by the public, the demos, but to use the word "state" implies the old USSR-style centralized-command-and-control model which no socialist should want to revive today. As Pannekoek writes, and one doesn't have to agree with his "state capitalist" theory of Stalinism to get his point,

    The acknowledged aim of socialism is to take the means of production out of the hands of the capitalist class and place them into the hands of the workers. This aim is sometimes spoken of as public ownership, sometimes as common ownership of the production apparatus. There is, however, a marked and fundamental difference.

    “Public ownership is the ownership, i.e. the right of disposal, by a public body representing society, by government, state power or some other political body. The persons forming this body, the politicians, officials, leaders, secretaries, managers, are the direct masters of the production apparatus; they direct and regulate the process of production; they command the workers. Common ownership is the right of disposal by the workers themselves; the working class itself — taken in the widest sense of all that partake in really productive work, including employees, farmers, scientists — is direct master of the production apparatus, managing, directing, and regulating the process of production which is, indeed, their common work…

    “As a correction to State-managed production, sometimes workers’ control is demanded. Now, to ask control, supervision, from a superior indicates the submissive mood of helpless objects of exploitation. And then you can control another man’s business; what is your own business you do not want controlled, you do it. Productive work, social production, is the genuine business of the working class. It is the content of their life, their own activity. They themselves can take care if there is no police or State power to keep them off. They have the tools, the machines in their hands, they use and manage them. They do not need masters to command them, nor finances to control the masters.

    Public ownership is the program of “friends” of the workers who for the hard exploitation of private capitalism wish to substitute a milder modernized exploitation. Common ownership is the program of the working class itself, fighting for self liberation….”
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    [FONT=Calibri]How do you guys think we should model state-owned business from left economic point of view?[/FONT]
    As far as I have thought of this - the best way is following:
    1. Owner of business is state - state receive all the profit of the business and share it among the population.
    2. The manager of business should have wide power enough to make and implement decisions, however, there should not be allowed such decisions as firing of employes or decrease of their salary. And largest revenue means increase of empoyee's (including manager) salary.
    3. Policy of pricing should be `free market` style - the producers of goods and services need a motivation to do the best they can, i.e. quality of their production should be as high as possible.

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