Results 1 to 9 of 9
I would like to discuss this, possibly with some RCP people... Bob Avakian's much touted new synthesis. What is new in it, what is valuable, and how has it been proven by the experiences of the working class movement?
I have some questions, after reading this:
http://www.revcom.us/Manifesto/Manifesto.html
First of all, is not this focus on the teaching of evolution in school a little bit distracted from the class struggle, a little bit of an emphasis on bourgeois liberal ideals?
Second, this "tendency toward inevitable-ism" which, we are told, is a result of Marx's errors which Bob Avakian has corrected... What are some concrete examples of its negative effect on the world communist movement? The Manifesto does not contain one concrete example of this.
Third, what are some concrete examples of Stalin's USSR or Mao's China not sufficiently emphasizing internationalism, and what is the origin of this error?
Fourth, if, indeed, the problem of class roaders is tied up very closely with the distinction between manual and mental labor, as the manifesto says, how can giving intellectuals more power and more scope within the party possibly help to cure this problem?
Fifth, is not the narrow focus of the arts and literature a rather inevitable consequence of the particularly intense period of class struggle which took place in China and the Soviet Union in the immediate aftermath of the revolution?
Sixth, concerning the strategic approach, is it possible to say, concretely, what it is? Or is it only possible to say that it is great and it is from Avakian? After reading the manifesto, I cannot tell what this new strategic approach is... At all. I have no idea, except that I think it has something to do with the teaching of evolution.
Seventh, can you provide a concrete example of the way in which the Avakianist doctrine of objective, class-independent truth is in contradiction with the Marxist doctrine of dialectical materialism? Other than, for instance, if we talk of objective truth in political or moral matters, in which case the notion of objective truth is in contradiction with dialectical materialism and is plainly and obviously wrong?
I just read the manifesto of the party, to see if I could figure out what is special about this "New Synthesis" of Avakian's. In reality, there isn't anything really "new" about it. It is mostly just commentary on alleged problems of the communist movement, such as, apparently, not being nice enough to intellectuals. When it isn't crap like this, it is basically about turning Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao into midgets for the Giant Avakian to stand on, in order to bolster Avakian as the new would-be Lenin. In reality, it's basically just a repacking of the same old bad Maoist lines.
There is also plenty of hilarity about Christian Fundies apparently waiting around the corner to shove creationism done your throat. It's really quite a ridiculous document in that regard.
I agree with that. But the most oppressed forces is not necessarily the same thing as the proletariat, and the primary revolutionary force is the proletariat.
I'm not sure what this really means... A communist revolution in a feudal country?
Marx talked about a bourgeois revolution and a socialist revolution. The revolution that would come in a feudal country would be a bourgeois revolution. It would nearly always be led by the bourgeoisie.
From that weathered, old Manifesto: "The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. "
Not relevant to the United States directly, but true nevertheless.
Again, in a revolution in a feudal country, the bourgeoisie is going to be fighting against feudalism as well. Again from the weathered, old Manifesto: "The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part. "
You need to read more Marx. There is no such thing as a proletarian revolution against feudalism.
Sure. And it's correct as far as the United States is concerned. I'm relieved. But I still think you could use some more Marx in your literary diet. Perhaps you could leaven the Avakian stuff with a little Marx, as dated as he is.
Or does Avakian deny the revolutionary role of the bourgeoisie in history?
As my post in the theory forum shows, I missed out as well. Perhaps you could come and answer my questions there?
I'd also like to point out that the RCP claims an even greater role for Avakian than this: Avakian is not only the developer of Marx, as Lenin was. Avakian is the corrector of Marx.
OK. I don't find this to be anything of any particular interest.
The notion that there have been no socialist countries since 1978 is certainly not new to Bob Avakian. (It's also not correct -- in my opinion obviously not correct -- but we'll leave that aside for now.)
So the question is in what way does that make this a new stage?
Obviously every revolution is different from the last. No comrade can enter the same river twice: The river will have changed and so will the comrade. (As Herodotus said (more or less) and, I think, Lenin and Stalin have both quoted.)
So, if all you're saying is that it's different now... Well, no shit.
I'm sure you could describe it as a new stage. There are undoubtedly many new features which would exist if the revolutionary situation were as Avakian -- in the normal Maoist way -- supposes it to be. It wouldn't be especially great to point out that this changes a lot of things in big ways.
But it's especially trivial to just say, "This is a new stage", without explaining, concretely, what the features of this new stage are. What's different about making revolution now, as opposed to before?
Avakian makes a few minor criticisms of past revolutionaries, but all of these are things which he says should have been done differently back then, too. He doesn't tell us anything about what we need to do differently now, in this new stage.
Compare what you have said above, or the related passages in that exciting new manifesto with, say, the Foundations of Leninism. You'll see exactly what I mean about concreteness.
OK... This I did grasp. Avakian is in favor of more liberalism in the arts. That's one of the very few concrete things I got out of the manifesto.
I'm not at all convinced that it's a general principle of revolution. In the immediate lead up to World War II, I can completely understand why Soviet arts and literature were focused so heavily on developing socialist morale... It was wartime, and you have to expect that kind of restriction.
Also, I really have a hard time seeing how it would help to prevent the development of capitalist roaders in the party. Consider: Capitalist roaders, according to Maoist theory, seem to mainly be the people doing intellectual labor. Avakian would give intellectual laborers more power, more liberty, more ability to reach the public without fear of criticism or censorship from the party.
I can't. I'm completely unimpressed by it.
I don't really think it makes sense even as a development of Maoism. I'm at an utter loss to understand how liberalism in the arts is at all compatible with the notion of a cultural revolution.
Also, I think that Lenin was correct in saying that revolutionaries should never rule out the use of any tactic in the right circumstances. In this case, that includes sharp crack downs on the arts. When the revolution is fiercely threatened, allowing counter-revolutionary messages to be produced in theater, film or literature is ridiculous.
This theory is not dialectical: It is anti-dialectical in that it supposes artistic freedom as an absolute. In dialectics, there are no absolutes.
It seems to me that this beautiful new development of Marxist theory, this profound criticism of Lenin and Mao, is really only a piece of petit-bourgeois liberalism clumsily grafted onto Marxism.
The only thing that keeps it from being a major problem is its triviality.
And I also don't think that you have exactly an arsenal of other concrete examples waiting in readiness. Prove me wrong and fire them away if you do.
Uh huh. I guess Bob Avakian has never heard the Angolan national slogan: "Angola e na trinchera firma no revolucao Africano." Angola is a strong trench in the African revolution. I am almost completely sure that Joao dos Santos had hold of Avakian's principle here before Avakian did. And it was not new with dos Santos.
The principle as stated is not in the least bit new.
Actually, it's not qualitative at all. It's an excellent illustration of a quantitative difference. Bob thinks that sometimes Stalin and Mao weren't quite internationalist enough. Other times they did just fine. He can't -- or at least you can't -- articulate a principle that says when is too much and when is not enough. He's just saying, "I'm slightly more internationalist than Stalin and Mao."
And your principle, at least as articulated here, is a very inferior statement of the problem compared with what Lenin has said about the problems of revolution in one country simply because it doesn't explain WHY revolution in one country is hard in concrete terms.
First of all, if Bob's distinction is between developed countries and feudal countries, Bob is a very poor sort of Marxist. Most of the countries which are called developing in American political discourse are thoroughly capitalist. This would include basically all of Latin America and most of Africa.
Then, as to the question of guerrilla warfare in developed countries: I am certainly not an advocate of armed struggle in any developed country. I hope that the world can find peace and solve its political problems by peaceful means. Etc.
But I have to note, of course purely as a historical matter, that guerrilla warfare was waged with considerable success in most of the countries of Europe during World War II.
Considering how far the RCP, or anyone else, is from actually directly challenging the bourgeoisie for control of the United States, it seems to me to be very, very early to speculate on exactly what form the final contest will take.
I hope that's enough on that subject.
This seems to me to be another petit-bourgeois retreat from dialectics. The struggle between communism and religion should ebb and flow with the circumstances, rather than be guided by some preconceived and eternal notion of priorities.
:P, comrade.
I eagerly await it.
Last edited by IsItJustMe; 21st December 2009 at 03:23.
I was merely articulating some of the aspects of the synthesis I observed folks, since Intelligitimate seemed to have missed them all. I don't have all the answers as to the RCP's views on everything! I'm not even a member, if you'll all recall! I'm still looking into all the myself. My lack of a more thorough understanding is precisely why I've not yet made the decision to pursue RCP membership. In other words, redwinter is probably the person who would be able to better clarify and more thoroughly respond to the critiques that have been provided here. So don't expect too much from me on the subject of the new synthesis okay people? Seriously. I'm still learning.
All that said (and hopefully understood), allow me to provide my thoughts on a few of the comments that have been posted:
Okay this I feel qualified to respond to. That position is definitely revisionist for it ruptures with the call to revolution! The need for revolution is one of the very most basic components of Marxism. The enemy does not simply abandon its hold on power voluntarily. In our case, the enemy has the most powerful military in the world to defend its position. And you would respond to this by calling for the employment of strictly "peaceful means"?
In my observation, you're prone to quick generalizations and oversimplifications. Mao's position, which this synthesis deepens and takes further, is this: "All truths are good for the proletariat". The openness of debate, the contesting of ideas, these help us get to the truth of things. When properly synthesized, that truth then positions us to respond to the challenges we may face. When we don't understand the world as it really is, then we can't correctly navigate the proverbial waters.
Yes, the kind of open contesting of ideas Avakian is calling for can in fact also enable the spreading of counterrevolutionary ideas and that can pose a very real danger for the revolution. Avakian understands this and has described the proper orientation as one of going "to the brink" of being destroyed without actually being destroyed. This is captured in his expression "solid core with a lot of elasticity". There is a contradiction there to be sure, and it has to be correctly handled. There is no simple answer here as to how that can be done in any and every situation. It's a complex matter.
Just some brief thoughts.
No... Go back and read it a little more carefully. What I said was that I would prefer a peaceful solution.
But the final line is really my view here, more than anything else: It is far too early in the U.S. revolution to say what form the final contest will take. Ruling any form of it out, as Bob Avakian does, is anti-dialectical.
I'm not going to get too deeply into this here. I'm not going to go on a message board where anyone who likes can read, and where there is really no anonymity, and write things which someone is going to twist until they look like they're against the law.
You understand that denying the need for revolution is revisionist. You're correct, and I'm glad that you have grasped that. It's an important point.
But careful reading is very important on this kind of issue, and you need to work on that. I think if you think about this, and you think about it honestly, you will find that the person who is limiting the forms that revolution can take is not me but Bob Avakian.
I'm cautious. Here's why:
But Avakian takes it a step beyond that, from caution to cowardice.
It could be. I have many faults. I do not claim to be a great revolutionary genius, and I certainly do not claim to be infallible. But you will still have to answer me point by point.
This wouldn't mean that bourgeois propaganda is good for the proletariat. Seriously... Have you read that crap? All truths are good for the proletariat.
Do you understand my point? That tactics depend on circumstances, and declaring as a blanket statement that intellectual liberalism in the revolution is good is not dialectical?
Has it occurred to you that liberalism in these sorts of issues is something that we see during periods when the class struggle is at a low ebb, and when the class struggle is in an intense period, no one, on either side, really does this?
Has it occurred to you that there are very good reasons for this?
But do you think that the proper position is always the same? That's my question. Do you think that the country can tolerate as much dissent in the middle of a war, let us say, as in a time of peace? That when the socialist revolution has triumphed in most of the world dissent will not be less dangerous than it is in, say, one tiny country surrounded by powerful, wealthy enemies?
And how do you square this with the problem of capitalist roaders? Are not capitalist roaders intellectual workers? In the Maoist view, did they not, ultimately, triumph in China? If that is the case, then the next wave of socialist revolution would have to wage a more determined struggle against capitalist roaders, not give them wider scope, wouldn't it?
This notion of Bob Avakian's does not make sense from a Maoist stand point.
It does make sense from a standpoint of petit-bourgeois, non-dialectical, liberalism.
I appreciate you replying. And I appreciate that your understanding of this is incomplete.
I'm disappointed, though, that no one who is actually a member of RCP has chosen to reply. For that matter, no one from the Kassama project has either.
It seems to me that a few quotes from the great Bob Avakian ought to be enough to show the whole world my errors.
But that brings me to one other criticism of that Manifesto which I have neglected until now: As a piece of writing, it absolutely sucks. Compare it to the old Manifesto. Read the old Manifesto first, and then read the RCP one... If you don't fall asleep half-way through the new one.
Last edited by IsItJustMe; 21st December 2009 at 18:36.
Alright then, let me challenge you with this thought: If one shuts off all voices of opposition...voices which may have important, even vital nuggets of truth that we don't, even within their possible overall incorrectness...how then does one arrive at the truth? You seem to have determined in advance that communists can be wrong about nothing and that the ordinary masses can be right about nothing that might run contrary to our views at any given point. You seem to favor notions of "class truth" over objective truth. I can't say I agree with such an outlook.
A time of actual war would probably constitute a specific exception to the overall rule. Yes, you do need to rein things in a bit when you're in those kinds of special conditions, I think, because you've come much closer to "the brink" at that point. Times of war require greater centralization than times of (relative) peace.
Well, the answer here is pretty complicated.
First of all, a party has to have very close connections to the non-party masses, and to be willing and able to learn from them as well as to teach them, in a dialectical way. Thus, there are ways of getting input from the masses other than through mass communication.
Second, cracking down on dissent undoubtedly does carry a cost with it in terms of making it less likely that the party will correct its errors. On the other end, it carries a benefit in that there is greater unity. Sometimes more of one is necessary and sometimes more of the other.
Third, concerning this notion of "class truth..." I am not quite sure what you mean. Certainly in regards to anything involving a political value judgment, what we value depends on which side we are on. That's Marxism 101.
Take, for instance, slavery. Was it good or bad? The masters thought it was good. The slaves thought it was bad. Hardly odd.
In capitalism, propaganda becomes much more developed and complicated, so that when we read the bourgeois press virtually every story or any political significance is distorted to make an argument in favor of a bourgeois perception of the matter.
Are you serious?
Here's the passage I believe you're referring to:
I'll try to break it down for you: this is an analogy to the situation of communism in the world today and how it's hanging by a thread in terms of whether or not there will even be a chance for people to take up communist revolution before our species is wiped out.
Just as a side note, if you haven't noticed, in the United States the teaching of evolution is in fact a contentious question, with it having been banned in certain areas of the country and with stickers placed by law on biology textbooks to the effect that "evolution is just a theory alongside creationism", etc. Fighting for science against this re-assertion of religious obscurantism, which revolutionary communists have been active in doing, is class struggle.
Is evolution a "bourgeois liberal idea" to you? If so, you have a problem.
One "concrete example" of the negative effects of some of these unscientific errors on the world communist movement would be that there is barely any "world communist movement" left to speak of and that there are zero socialist states in the world, from when we used to control a sizable chunk of the world's population and landmass with many millions around the planet who were inspired by the Russian and Chinese revolutions and then the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in the 1960s and 70s. Today we have pretty much nothing "concrete" to show for it - but we should be learning our lessons and taking our understanding to the next level. Avakian has synthesized this leap.
If you have the wrong ideas you can't get anywhere in practice. The General Crisis Theory of the Comintern, upheld by Stalin and Dimitrov, for example, surmised that the world capitalist system was in a permanent linear downward motion of crisis. This prediction was incorrect and together with some other fucked up lines like the "united front against fascism" ended up both paving the way for capitalist restoration in the USSR and the ideological bankruptcy of nearly the entire international communist movement soon after the 20th congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1956.
This was actually also very bound up with some of the problems of the USSR during WWII and the internationalism point (like the Comintern's policy in Spain during the civil war there). Check Avakian's "Advancing the World Revolution" for more on this:
http://revcom.us/bob_avakian/advanci...revolution.htm
The Manifesto doesn't just say that you have to give intellectuals more power and more scope within the party, nor that it was a question of the focus being too narrow for arts and literature. At the core is a recognition that one of the basic problems in socialist society that led to the ability for the restoration of capitalism was the fact that not enough of the masses were cognizant of the nature of the political line struggle going on in society and especially at its ruling heights among key figures in the communist party itself--that the Cultural Revolution in China was an effort that contributed to this, but that it wasn't enough (not to say that things would definitely have turned out differently had things been different or that it was a completely subjective problem on the part of the communists, it could very well have been objectively true no matter what at that point in history, but that we definitely will not be advancing any further on the road to communism if we don't change that shit up). You still need a solid core of revolutionary communist emancipators of humanity (which is not identical with just the party itself in any one country where the proletariat has seized state power) but you need elasticity throughout society on the basis of that solid core to be able to "fit the masses to rule" in Marx's terminology (though not through necessarily military civil wars as Marx suggested, but principally through ideological struggle).
Check this out for more info, it is referenced in the Manifesto:
http://rwor.org/a/102/possibility-en.html
No, the concept of the existence of objective truth is not in contradiction with dialectical materialism...not sure where you are inventing this from. Can you provide some citations when you ask these kinds of questions? I may be able to help some more if you do.
Ummm, OK, one question from a noob:
If suppression of dissent actually really absolutely ever worked in real life.....
Then how does anyone even know the words "communism", "anarchism", "socialism" etc in the U.S. anymore?
Well, of course, one answer is that those opposed to these things make the grand mistake of accusing liberals of being these things, and so people like me start thinking, "Hrrm, what is this little communisticky thing here that these fuckheads hate so much?". But they seek to control the public's impressions of what these are. Obviously they have never completely succeeded. And one reason as I insinuate above is that when the current rulers start looking ugly, anything they insult starts to look like something worth a lookie here....
We currently live in a country drowned in bourgeois propaganda. If we're not afraid of it now, and it's not stopping us from having these sites now, why be afraid of it during socialist control of state power? Aren't we already in the process of showing it up for the tripe it is? Would we suddenly be unable to do so once the great scary chain of power wraps itself around our necks?