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you seriously want me to back this up. Okay quick english lesson, thievery means stealing other's property. Property is a natural right. So now we have that out of the way. Communism says you earned that property so give it to me or we will shoot you and take it. Stealing is stealing no matter who what it is for. So now on to communism as a theory of thievery, these people are oppressed by state capitalists so we want to take the property of everyone and combine it and allow everyone to share in the riches of it, even though collective property has been shown to be since Aristotle to be less productive than private property so we may all starve but no one has property b/c we took it.
stealing-taking someone else's property, communism- taking property and collectivizing it for everyone. One in the same.
Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed.-Étienne de La Boétie
Lmao, no and no and no.
Slaves are natural property too right? And kings were born having the right to all of the land. Your a fuckin genius, kid.
No I didn't realize one sentence of yours could completely destroy the whole works of Marx, Engels, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Luxemburg, Lenin, Goldman, Stirner, etc.
"America is ready for another revolution" - Sarah Palin
The same way that Capitalism makes working people give up their wealth.
No i believe that everyone has natural rights including self determination, so obviously slavery is wrong and a disgusting practice that prevents people from determining their lives. Within the 20th century it can be seen that slavery to the state under communist regimes was a pathetic existence and it was overthrown so others agree. And no kings don't deserve any land b/c kings don't deserve any power derrrrrrrrrrr. There should be no state so in turn no state ownership. If someone makes it big and they pass it on to their kids then why should i or anybody else care.
First off i don't think i refute them i am using others to refute them like everyone else here is. Plus are you retarded Stirner said slavery is okay as long as you the might to control people. Might makes right for him and i find that very very wrong. The might to do something just shows you have the force to do it not the right to. But what i have never understood is why leftists use Stirner all the time when the man wrote against liberal governments and socialist ideas at the same time. He is not at all a leftist or a socialist. The same goes for Nietzsche, who was an individualist not some mysterious leftist like many put him to be.
Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed.-Étienne de La Boétie
Stealing is taking someone's rightfully owned property.
Communists put forth the idea that the property of the upper class isn't rightfully owned.
So I guess all that stuff about "thievery" doesn't matter. It appears we've come to an impasse.
btw: You do this thing where you think the things you say are self-evident and infallible and it's sort of how children debate so what I might suggest is going out once in awhile so you can learn how to talk to people and how human beings interact.
It is scary but I promise you can do it!
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
So do property laws, in practice its the same thing.
Your claim that property rights is a natural right is as rediculous as the claim that kings have.
We'll make 'em an offer they can't refuse
Prove all of rich people's property is wrongfully owned and you still have to give it to the rightful owners (i.e. the heirs). Sorry, it doesn't just go "to the people".
Between production for profit and production for needs there is no contrast.
Ludwig von Mises, Socialism
Right then, let's start with giving the indigenous people their land and property back, afterall, it is stolen property. That ok with you ?
Property is Theft!
Well you already assume owning property privately is "right". If you start off with the proposition that property should be held privately then it's kind of hard to explain why rich people's property is wrongfully owned. So you ask the wrong question.
We claim to live and die equal, the way we were born: we want this real equality or death; that’s what we need.
And we’ll have this real equality, at whatever price. Unhappy will be those who stand between it and us! Unhappy will be those who resist a wish so firmly expressed.
The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last.
-Gracchus Babeuf
In the event of a communist revolution, we'd send them to forced labour camps if they resisted the expropriation of their property.
As it is unnatural, such property is only as good as the state defending it.
And FTW
By force
simple as that
Marx and Engels speak about revolution and such, all this implies force.
Just like the bourgeosie used force to break down feudal property/etc (i.e. turn them into commodities that can be bought, etc) and to gain political power, we would do the same for bourgeois property (i.e. turn them into collective property by appropriating it and running co-ops and shit).
Than there's this discussion about "rights" and what not...
there's no such thing as "natural rights", rights (they should be called privileges, as Carlin called them) are determined by the state (in the case of capitalism/class society, this is determined by an elite, which requires a state or state-like institutions to maintain their "natural rights.") and they can take it away, especially stuff like right to own guns or freedom of the press, when they please. Since the state is controlled by political representatives of the bourgeoisie (who can be part of that class too) the "rights" are in their favor and whenever it reaches a point where those rights might not be they could always suspend them.
Last edited by Raúl Duke; 13th April 2010 at 17:16.
"My heart sings for you both. Imagine it singing. la la la la."- Hannah Kay
"if you keep calling average working people idiots i am sure they will be more apt to listen to what you have to say. "-bcbm
"Sometimes false consciousness can be more destructive than apathy, just like how sometimes, doing nothing is actually better than doing the wrong thing."- Robocommie
"The ruling class would tremble, and the revolution would be all but assured." -Explosive Situation, on the Revleft Merry Prankster bus
Well, I think it is right that I privately own my body (only I can control/dispose of my body rightfully--the definition of ownership), so I extrapolate this rightness onto other things I can (rightfully) dispose of.
Between production for profit and production for needs there is no contrast.
Ludwig von Mises, Socialism
Good answers
Good answers.
I can barely understand what your saying. But my point was that property rights is not a natural right and that it is rather been an obstacle of this self-determination. Kings and slave owners too were under the protection of this notion that "private property is a natural right"
So how are capitalists differentiated from this? Why do they deserve all the land and the means of productions as opposed to the people who work them?
State ownership is the creation of a monopoly of private ownership.
My bad on Stirner, but Nietzsche? haha. Existentialism does not equal anarcho-capitalism. As far as I understand, Nietzhsche was a critic of anarchism. He's appealed to various leftist anarchists though, including Emma Goldman, Rudolf Rocker, and many Spanish anarchists.
I don't think Nietzsche wrote extensively on political science. Leftists are appealed of him because of his philosophical views.
"America is ready for another revolution" - Sarah Palin
Everybody in the world thinks Nietzsche holds their politics.
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
I dunno, but I suspect it might look something like this:
+ YouTube Video
We've been over this allrady and us Socialists handed you your ass on a platter, don't make us do it again.
You don't own your body, your body is a part of you.
