Abortion: Personal Choice or Public Desision

[KarlMarx1989]

I know this can be a touchy subject, at times, but we've got to address it eventually; especially since we talk about revolution, here.

Let's say we do succeed in a revolution and get a Socialist society going, just hypothetically. What laws should be put in place about abortion? Should it be the choice of the pregnant one or the decision of the public to ban or legalize it?

[Rusty Shackleford]

it is completely a personal choice. the public has no say. if she asks for input then that is the only time the community should do anything, or if it is a medical emergency or health issue for the woman.

"oh but what about the father!?" he can make a new one and if not, though luck. its her choice and if she cannot handle it then she can abort it. and if she wants to put the baby up for adoption so be it.

"But what about god!?" fuck god. (i will not apologize for my stance on god)

"But what about the baby!?" the toughest question. but, if society cannot support more mouths and the mother cannot support it then i see no issue with it. this may sound extremely cruel, and i feel somewhat bad that the baby cant be born, but it is not my choice and would be better than that baby starving to death 4 years later.

the only power i have is to help guarantee that right to choice from those who wish to take away that right.

in all, i would hope to see that there would be no laws prohibiting abortion. it would be legal within reason. a 36th trimester abortion would not be allowed for obvious reasons

[LOLseph Stalin]

36th trimester

Wow, that's a really long pregnancy.

Anyway, to get back to the topic, it should always be a woman's choice whether she wants an abortion or not. Sure, people in the community can oppose it, but it's not their body. If they don't like abortion they don't have to get one. As Vacant mentioned, if I had to choose between giving birth to a child only to have it starve or an abortion I would choose the latter. Better to abort the child than see it suffer. As for people who oppose abortion on religious grounds, religion should be a private matter anyway.

[Rusty Shackleford]

about the 36th trimester thing. i was thinking of the episode of southpark where Eric Cartman's (obese 4th grade kid who is racist) mother wanted to abort him in the 36th trimester

but yes. if it is a religious matter, it is the woman's choice to choose to follow her religious feelings. the comment on god was just my own feeling on religion. a useless statement.

religion is a private and personal matter but this is not the subject.

[JJM 777]

Is this the first abortion thread in the history of this forum? Or could the older threads related to Women's Struggle be postumely moved under this sub-forum?

The debate about abortion is more complicated and detailed than just "yes" or "no". Eventually there must be an answer, which of these is legal and which is not legal, and what is the punishment for what is not legal:
- contraception
- regret pills
- abortion in 1st trimester
- abortion in 2nd trimester
- abortion in 3rd trimester
- infanticide immediately after birth
- infanticide within 7 days from birth
- infanticide within 1 month from birth
- infanticide within 1 year from birth

[Rusty Shackleford]

Is this the first abortion thread in the history of this forum? Or could the older threads related to Women's Struggle be postumely moved under this sub-forum?

The debate about abortion is more complicated and detailed than just "yes" or "no". Eventually there must be an answer, which of these is legal and which is not legal, and what is the punishment for what is not legal:
- contraception
- regret pills
- abortion in 1st trimester
- abortion in 2nd trimester
- abortion in 3rd trimester
- infanticide immediately after birth
- infanticide within 7 days from birth
- infanticide within 1 month from birth
- infanticide within 1 year from birth

along those lines, i would say abortion must be before 3rd trimester unless emergency dictates otherwise. and infanticide is immediately after birth. from that point on it is possible to maintain its life. it may become a burden but at this point. it is born and should not be killed. only in the most dire and drastic situation known to man would it have to be killed.

and a great way to avoid pregnancy by accident is to promote heavily the use of safe contraceptives (i dont know the health effects of some so im assuming there may be some dangerous ones)

[LOLseph Stalin]

It truly puzzles me how in many countries, killing a pregnant woman constitutes as double homicide. So is a fetus actually considered a "person"? Funny this is so when abortion is still legal in many countries(as it should be)...

[KarlMarx1989]

- contraception
- regret pills
- abortion in 1st trimester
- abortion in 2nd trimester
- abortion in 3rd trimester
- infanticide immediately after birth
- infanticide within 7 days from birth
- infanticide within 1 month from birth
- infanticide within 1 year from birth

I believe that the following should not be legal.

- abortion in 2nd trimester
- abortion in 3rd trimester
- infanticide immediately after birth
- infanticide within 7 days from birth
- infanticide within 1 month from birth
- infanticide within 1 year from birth

The reason being is that before the embryo becomes a fetus, it hasn't developed a brain or a heart or anything yet. Once the time comes that the embryo becomes a fetus and has developed a brain and other organs like that, it should not be terminated.

However, I do agree that this can be a complicated issue for you have situations where there are some women who do not know they are pregnant really at all until they go into labor. So, I could support a situation like the one purposed:

abortion must be before 3rd trimester unless emergency dictates otherwise. and infanticide is immediately after birth. from that point on it is possible to maintain its life. it may become a burden but at this point. it is born and should not be killed.

[9]

It truly puzzles me how in many countries, killing a pregnant woman constitutes as double homicide. So is a fetus actually considered a "person"? Funny this is so when abortion is still legal in many countries(as it should be)...

Well, in the case of an abortion, it is the pregnant woman who is making the decision for herself to terminate her pregnancy. In the case of someone murdering a pregnant woman.... that is obviously not the situation. Nor would it reflect favorably upon abortion if abortion began to be used as a justification for reducing the sentence of people who kill pregnant women.

--

Also, where the hell did this talk of "infanticide" come from? When has killing a child after it has been born ever been debated as a legitimate practice by advocates of women's bodily autonomy? It is a bizarre thing to even include in the discussion.

[Luís Henrique]

Also, where the hell did this talk of "infanticide" come from? When has killing a child after it has been born ever been debated as a legitimate practice by advocates of women's bodily autonomy? It is a bizarre thing to even include in the discussion.

Here, from google images for "bizarre thing to even include in the discussion":



Luís Henrique

[bcbm]

still seems more reasonable than infanticide

[Luís Henrique]

It truly puzzles me how in many countries, killing a pregnant woman constitutes as double homicide. So is a fetus actually considered a "person"? Funny this is so when abortion is still legal in many countries(as it should be)...

Those are, as far as I am informed, recent developments. They are "trigger laws", designed to immediately frame abortion as murder as soon as there is no longer a constitutional ruling making it impossible.

A good example (good as an example, it is an awful piece of legislation) is the California Penal Code.

http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen.html

Luís Henrique

[9]

Those are, as far as I am informed, recent developments. They are "trigger laws", designed to immediately frame abortion as murder as soon as there is no longer a constitutional ruling making it impossible.

Luís Henrique

Am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that the murder of a pregnant woman should be considered 'abortion'?

[Luís Henrique]

Am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that the murder of a pregnant woman should be considered 'abortion'?

No, it should be considered the murder of one adult woman. The fact of pregnancy should be an aggravating circumstance, if known, or irrelevant, if unknown.

Luís Henrique

[JJM 777]

Some further ethical spices into the soup are cases where the newborn is deformed to the extent that it would not survive "naturally" (if there is such a thing as natural survival), but the very latest medical technology is able to save it from death. I think that Down syndrome would often be fatal, but modern technology has improved their survival rates.

Interesting statistics: in Finland some 200 Down syndrome cases are detected every year in prenatal screenings. In most cases the parents choose abortion when they hear the report, but some choose to give birth to the Down child.

Humans have throughout the ages used infanticide to get rid of deformed babies soon after birth. Sparta was a well-known example, but the entire Europe was doing it, both before and after Sparta.

[Pogue]

womans right to choose etc

[jake williams]

It's not even a serious question, in fact it's a major waste of time that anyone sensible discusses it. Please not on RevLeft.

[KarlMarx1989]

where the hell did this talk of "infanticide" come from?

It came from this post:

The debate about abortion is more complicated and detailed than just "yes" or "no". Eventually there must be an answer, which of these is legal and which is not legal, and what is the punishment for what is not legal:
- contraception
- regret pills
- abortion in 1st trimester
- abortion in 2nd trimester
- abortion in 3rd trimester
- infanticide immediately after birth
- infanticide within 7 days from birth
- infanticide within 1 month from birth
- infanticide within 1 year from birth

Humans have throughout the ages used infanticide to get rid of deformed babies soon after birth. Sparta was a well-known example, but the entire Europe was doing it, both before and after Sparta.

Yeah, but times have changed. People also used to kill a lamb and scatter its blood to rid themselves of sins. We certainly don't do that anymore.

killing a pregnant woman constitutes as double homicide.

it should be considered the murder of one adult woman.

I agree. If abortion is to be legal, we need to stop classifying killing a pregnant woman as two people.

in Finland some 200 Down syndrome cases are detected every year in prenatal screenings. In most cases the parents choose abortion when they hear the report, but some choose to give birth to the Down child.

I can support a law like that.

[Atrus]

It must absolutely be the woman's choice, as long as the foetus is dependant upon her [ie, until birth].

[brigadista]

personal choice of course - im with pogue on this - its a womans right to choose- nothing further to add