Chaos Theory

[Rosa Provokateur]

After watching Jurassic Park all day and listening to Jeff Goldblum mention it every 30 seconds, I've gotta know what chaos theory is. I know it's mathematic and that it has to do with predictability and that's about it.

[Bud Struggle]

Well there's a real scientific Chaos theory--but in reality people think with their emotions more than they ever will or can think with their intellect or reason. There are more believers in my suburban Florida Catholic church than in RevLeft. Logic only works for Vulcans. We humans are born in chaos, dwell in it all our lives and then are assumed into chaos heaven after we die.

There are ways around chaos--rules scientificly though out and meticuluously followed, but those that can do such things are few and far between. The vast majority of us are what we are now and always will be--humanity.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well there's a real scientific Chaos theory--but in reality people think with their emotions more than they ever will or can think with their intellect or reason.

So what? Just because that's the way things are, doesn't mean that's the way things should be.

There are more believers in my suburban Florida Catholic church than in RevLeft.

And there are probably more Muslims in my area than on Revleft, so what?

Logic only works for Vulcans.

Logic works for everyone.

We humans are born in chaos, dwell in it all our lives and then are assumed into chaos heaven after we die.

No, we are born, we live our lives, we die. That's it. Make the best of it.

Unless of course, you have some evidence of this "chaos heaven" of yours...

There are ways around chaos--rules scientificly though out and meticuluously followed, but those that can do such things are few and far between. The vast majority of us are what we are now and always will be--humanity.

Just because humans can be irrational, that does not mean irrationality is definitively human. There is no immutable, unchanging thing called humanity, rather it is a constantly ongoing process that is shaped and guided by the forces of genetics and environment.

[Bud Struggle]

NoXion, all well and good. My argument here isn't a matter of what I believe. I'm a catholic and all of that--but I'm an investor in the stock market also and I've been vastly influenced by this guy: http://www.jasonzweig.com/brainbook.html

Jason Zweig. He maps out how I as a savy investor am a SLAVE to my impulses (and he explains how to over come the impulses so I can invest correctly.) But the point of the book is that we as humans are not in control of our responses to stimulae. We can through large amounts of effort train ourselves like rats (with a huge hunk of cheese as a reward) to behave rationally--but it's not something we can do without large amounts of training and large amounts of "cheese."

Rationality is nothing that comes naturally to human beings. We are doomed to be what we are--despight all our best intentions. It just seems to be the science of the the thing.

[Kronos]

He maps out how I as a savy investor am a SLAVE to my impulses (and he explains how to over come the impulses so I can invest correctly.)

Jason: "Your problem, Bud, is that you want more money. This is bad, because it prevents you from making more money, which is what you should want to do."

[ scratches head ]

[Bud Struggle]

Jason: "Your problem, Bud, is that you want more money. This is bad, because it prevents you from making more money, which is what you should want to do."

[ scratches head ]

The problem here isn't "more" of anything. The problem here is with our limited psychology and limited logic--how do we make things work?

And further: who says logic defines the universe of reality? Got some proof the universe is logical?

[Kronos]

Got some proof the universe is logical?

Only linguistic, symbolic and numeric propositions/statements can be logical.

So if some aspect of the universe can be properly 'described' through these means, then yeah.

But don't conflate the term 'logical' like so many people do. People use that term often when really what they are asking is a different question.

Is the universe meaningful, or does the universe have purpose, or is it rational....these are the questions they are wanting to ask.

Yet even these are vague. We need a more specific question.

There are grand, philosophical questions everywhere, Bud, and they don't amount to anything more than 'muddied waters', as the good Wittgenstein once put it.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Rationality is nothing that comes naturally to human beings. We are doomed to be what we are--despight all our best intentions. It just seems to be the science of the the thing.

We're not "doomed" - we can change our environment to a large degree, and we're getting better at fiddling with genetics as well - and even in the absence of such things, people still manage to rise above their instincts and make the better decision.

Rationality doesn't come naturally to us, that is true; but that only highlights the importance of education. We're no longer under the law of the jungle - the instincts and impulses that evolved in us over the agonisingly slow sweep of evolutionary time just aren't sufficient.

[Bud Struggle]

We're not "doomed" - we can change our environment to a large degree, and we're getting better at fiddling with genetics as well - and even in the absence of such things, people still manage to rise above their instincts and make the better decision.

Well yea. The the means that we have (at least in the past) made better decisions is through trancendence. We have at times become "better" than what the atoms of what we are composed of seem to offer.

I have a hard time believing that the stones and the dust of our existance have in their essential being somewhere the echos of Bach's St. Matthew's Passion.

Rationality doesn't come naturally to us, that is true; but that only highlights the importance of education. We're no longer under the law of the jungle - the instincts and impulses that evolved in us over the agonisingly slow sweep of evolutionary time just aren't sufficient.

Even from a Bourgeoise point of view it's obvious that Communism is logical, rational. But there are so few Communists.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well yea. The the means that we have (at least in the past) made better decisions is through trancendence. We have at times become "better" than what the atoms of what we are composed of seem to offer.

That's one way of putting it, if I understand you correctly.

I have a hard time believing that the stones and the dust of our existance have in their essential being somewhere the echos of Bach's St. Matthew's Passion.

I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?

Even from a Bourgeoise point of view it's obvious that Communism is logical, rational. But there are so few Communists.

That might have something to do with the fact that communism has an overwhelming tendency to be vilified, slandered and/or misrepresented in anglo-saxon countries.

[Robert]

oops

[Robert]

I have a hard time believing that the stones and the dust of our existance have in their essential being somewhere the echos of Bach's St. Matthew's Passion.

I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?

Whatever he meant, it reminded me that Germany's greatest composer once said "Everything I do, I do for the glory of God."

Bach did not waste time explaining what he meant by "God," blah blah. He was too busy writing perfect music, inspired by his conception of a divine mind. And the music still speaks to us 250 years after his death.

How about them apples?

[Bud Struggle]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?

My mistake--my daughter (12) was practicing her second lesson at the bassoon right in front of me as I typed. (No joke!) It was (is, will be,) quite distracting. She can play F, Bflat, Eflat and G. Hmmm.