Results 1 to 20 of 36
Catholics and Liberals and Ghosts
So what? Everyone knows you're a catholic. At least liberals don't believe in ghosts.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
I'm sure there are plenty of liberals that believe in ghosts.
America is just the country that shows how all the written guarantees in the world for freedom are no protection against tyranny and oppression of the worst kind. There the politician has come to be looked upon as the very scum of society. - Peter Kropotkin
Perhaps, but the point is that believing in ghosts is not a constitutive element of being a liberal. But if you don't believe in ghosts, you can't properly call yourself a catholic.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
Ok I see what you are getting at but as for Catholics there are many that think that there are only angels and demons.
America is just the country that shows how all the written guarantees in the world for freedom are no protection against tyranny and oppression of the worst kind. There the politician has come to be looked upon as the very scum of society. - Peter Kropotkin
Maybe, but that's hardly an advance in scientific understanding of the world. Anyway, surely all Catholics have to believe in the Holy Ghost?
But, back to Mr Moore...
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
lol, its usually referred to as the Holy Spirit nowadays and whether you say "spirit" or "ghost" it has never meant 'ghosts' in the supernatural sense (spirits of dead people/beings floating around that didn't go to the afterlife for some reason) as you seem to be portraying it to be. It just refers to the omnipresent aspect of god.
I am a committed atheist but your misrepresentation of christian theology is astounding.
Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice. -George Jackson
There is no such thing as an innocent bystander. -Abbie Hoffman
And seriously whats with the scientific advancement stuff all about? Its not as if people still think that all bad things happen because the devil did it or anything.
America is just the country that shows how all the written guarantees in the world for freedom are no protection against tyranny and oppression of the worst kind. There the politician has come to be looked upon as the very scum of society. - Peter Kropotkin
A change in terminology prompted by the realisation that 'Holy Ghost' sounds absolutely ridiculous to modern ears
The Holy Spirit is, as part of God himself, by definition supernatural
March at the head of the ideas of your century and those ideas will follow and sustain you. March behind them and they will drag you along. March against them and they will overthrow you.
Napoleon III
Well technically god can't be separated into 'parts' as god is omnipresent...
-August
If we have no business with the construction of the future or with organizing it for all time, there can still be no doubt about the task confronting us at present: the ruthless criticism of the existing order, ruthless in that it will shrink neither from its own discoveries, nor from conflict with the powers that be.
- Karl Marx
You're really going to be this pedantic about the wording of a sentence? Stop being a grammar nazi and making useless posts like this, it doesn't add anything to the conversation.
I said "ghosts in the supernatural sense. Here's some dictionary definitions:
"Holy spirit" or "Holy ghost" does not refer to the following, as Bob the Builder seems to think it does:
"Holy spirit" or "Holy ghost" DOES refer to the following:
"Holy spirit" or "Holy ghost" refers to a christian (it isn't just catholic) theological concept. It refers to god, but the omnipresent aspect of god - the all-seeing, all-knowing, always-present part that affects people in their daily lives.
You shouldn't talk shit about religion without knowing basic shit like this. If you don't know it, then do the research before talking crap about it, otherwise you just come off as ignorant.
Last edited by Yazman; 9th September 2009 at 13:56. Reason: Removing nasty shit.
Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice. -George Jackson
There is no such thing as an innocent bystander. -Abbie Hoffman
And you just come off as an abusive mystic, desperately clinging to semantics in order to justify your otherwise irrational and medieval belief system.
Besides:
&
Both sound like good descriptions of Jesus Christ after his resurrection. He died and was resurrected; supposedly now exists in a disembodied form; inhabits the unseen world of Heaven; and appeared to the apostles soon after his resurrection in bodily likeness.
I don't believe you.
Sure about that? See the results of a Gallup poll below:
You can look at the full report here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/7858/Devi...c-Details.aspx
Now, many of these believers in Satan may not see his intervention in the world, but many will.
If you think that many Christians don't believe that Satan is responsible for all the evil in the world, you need to watch more TV evangelists who regularly name Satan as the culprit.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
You're right. It'd be more accurate to say 'an aspect of God' as opposed to a discrete part
I'm curious, how exactly was I being pedantic? I've hardly regaled you with a host of unnecessary facts, unless you consider the observation that the 'Holy Spirit' was once referred to as the 'Holy Ghost' to be a somewhat obscure observation?Originally Posted by Yazman
I do particularly like how you accuse be of both being pedantic and ignorant in the same post though
No, the definition of ghost has changed somewhat in the past two thousand years but it still remains fundamentally the same at the core. Ghost has always meant spirit/soul... some supernatural animating force. The definition that you refer to, with its specific connection with death, is an alternative one that has grown in popularity in the past centuries. This is one in which the animating spectral force is directly related to a dead soul. Frankly the only difference here is that, unless you believe Nietzsche, God is not dead
And God, ie the divine, is by definition supernatural. Angels are supernatural. Demons are supernatural. Heaven is supernatural. Any divine agency is supernatural; that is, they exist outside the realm of natural laws
For that matter, banshees are supernatural. Vampires are supernatural. Trolls (of the non-internet variety) are supernatural. Fairies are supernatural. Poltergeists are supernatural. And so on and so on
March at the head of the ideas of your century and those ideas will follow and sustain you. March behind them and they will drag you along. March against them and they will overthrow you.
Napoleon III
Irrelevant. I was referring to a specific thing and it was quite obvious what I was referring to. I never said [insert fairy tale here] wasn't supernatural (god/demons/whatever).
LOL. I don't support christianity and it isn't my "belief system." I'm not "defending it." It surprises me that you would be at Revleft of all places and hold such a "with us or against us" mentality. Two people being atheists doesn't mean one is required to automatically support everything the other says when one attacks religion. I'm criticising your misunderstanding of a pretty fundamental concept in christianity. How do you expect to be able to challenge christian beliefs - to THEM - when you don't even seem willing to learn about said beliefs? How the hell can you expect to gain any credibility in this? I called you on your bullshit, thats all.
LOL. I don't give a shit if you believe it or not. Religion and associated "belief" should be abolished but its ridiculously stupid to mouth off about it when you clearly don't know much about it. Being an atheist doesn't mean knee-jerk defense of idiotic claims made by other atheists just because they're "against religion." (this means that I am not on "your side of the argument" when you say something I disagree with just because we are both atheists). It means the denial of god(s)!
Thats right. The christian concept of "holy spirit" refers, as I said, to "the omnipresent aspect of god - the all-seeing, all-knowing, always-present part that affects people in their daily lives." It does not refer to "ghosts" as we commonly picture them today. To compare the two demonstrates, imo, a pretty poor understanding of the concept, and if we are to demonstrate to them why its wrong simply saying "LOL! You believe in GHOSTS!" isn't going to cut it, because you just come off as ignorant.
Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice. -George Jackson
There is no such thing as an innocent bystander. -Abbie Hoffman
ghost might exist, but there is nothing magical about it, we just cant explain it with our current science, that all.
see, even atheist can believe in ghost
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
Then why are you leaping to the defence of this doctrine by hair-splitting over definitions? If you were really an atheist you would understand than none of the 'referents' in religious discourse are real; they are symbolic representations. So whether the ghost in 'holy ghost' is meant to be the same as the 'ghost' in Hamlet, the 'ghost' in Dickens' A Christmas Carol, or the 'ghost' in Descartes' 'ghost in the machine', is irrelevant. None of them exist in the real world.
You seem incapable of understanding ComradeOrm's argument that whether you call it 'ghost', 'spirit' or whatever, it is still an entity which exists in the supernatural realm, alongside a variety of other fabulous and ridiculous 'species'.
Then why do you give a fuck whether this non-existent deity is called a 'ghost'; or a 'spirit'?
On the contrary, it is you who is labouring under a misunderstanding: that whether you call it 'ghost' or 'spirit' actually matters. We could call it 'the Holy Sid' and it would still be nonsense! Even if we accept your definition that the concept of the 'holy spirit' merely refers to "the omnipresent aspect of god - the all-seeing, all-knowing, always-present part that affects people in their daily lives", this does not make it fundamentally more rational than believing in ghosts - it still depends on the same belief in a supernatural realm. In fact, all your definition comes down to is the idea that the holy ghost is more powerful, more omnipresent and more omniscient than regular ghosts. All you've defined is a 'super ghost'.
You cannot challenge Christian beliefs with rational argument because of this little thing called 'faith'. So if this is how you spend your time, you should get another, more productive, hobby.
Last edited by Hit The North; 6th September 2009 at 16:42.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
You're a Catholic Communist?
I'm not even a Catholic and probably follow the teachings of the Catholic Church better than you do.
You must be a pretty poor Catholic.
Its not irrelevant when you're misrepresenting them, which you shouldn't be doing if you're trying to advance rational thought and critical thinking. You can't really do this without looking ignorant when you're just painting their beliefs as something they're not - they won't even consider your argument if you don't even bother to try to come to a rudimentary understanding of what it is they actually believe, which you're not doing.
I never disputed that it was in the supernatural realm, wtf. I always agreed with that from the very start. What I said is that the commonly known idea of a "ghost" is one of apparitions, and that "holy ghost/spirit" doesn't refer to an apparition. This is an important distinction to them - don't bother challenging them if you don't even understand what you're challenging.
I don't give a fuck whether you say "holy ghost" or "holy spirit" - I take issue with the fact that you're claiming that "holy ghost/spirit" means apparitions when it obviously doesn't mean that. You shouldn't misrepresent people, even if they're the enemy. Being an atheist is not an excuse to be ignorant.
Thats true, but the problem is that you're claiming that "holy ghost/spirit" means apparitions when it doesn't. Its nonsense either way but its an important distinction for them and its something that you should know. If you tell a catholic that "apparitions don't exist and thats why the concept of the holy spirit is bullshit" you will get laughed at for being incredibly ignorant. You will only get them to question their own ideas if you can put forward a well informed argument, and painting them as idiots and misrepresenting what they believe will only insult them.
Of course it does, but its a very important distinction to them.
What it comes down to is that it doesn't refer to "regular ghosts" at all and that they aren't really an important part, if a part at all, of their canon.
Of course you can. A lot of the atheists I know IRL used to be very religious people (the city I'm staying in atm is a very religious one) who were led to question their beliefs by other atheists. You can't "disprove" their but you can show them a different way of thinking and lead them to question their own beliefs.
This is a pretty pointless thing to include, and only serves to inject venom into the thread. There's no need to be spiteful dude, take it easy.
Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice. -George Jackson
There is no such thing as an innocent bystander. -Abbie Hoffman
Have you ever considered as an atheist that obviously by definition has no stake in theistic faith that actively setting out on the endevour of developing a precise and detailed working knowledge of that precise thing is a rather fruitless use of time?
I don't promote ignorance in any form but there are priests who don't know the entire labyrinth of christian doctrine and they've wasted their lives on purpetuating it, surely it's better to forget some of this idiotic drivel and let it fade from the consciousness of society than to teach ourselves it's every facet and ensure it's survival and resurgance in the emotionally and mentally infirm people who feel the only thng that will get them through tomorrow is the unprovable molestation of random chance by an invisible magic sky father (or miracles as they call them).
You don't stamp out idiocy by reading widely on the subject, simply not being an idiot is much more effective.
I am Dyslexic. Thank you Precy & Dr. W. Pringle Morgan for Congential Word Blindness!It's not a matter of whether the war is not real, or if it is, Victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous.
Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance[…] In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation.
The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over [an enemy] but to keep the very structure of society intact.
Loosely attributed to - Eric Arthur Blair (George Orwell)
So far, "dude", you're the only one talking about apparitions - in your attempt to claim I said what I didn't say.
Nevertheless, while you mention it; how do you explain stories such as these which have great currency in the Catholic church:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...o-Lourdes.html
and this:
So, taking this evidence into account, I'll restate the argument that many Catholics believe in ghosts. Although to satisfy your love of evasive language, I'll modify my claim and say that Catholics, including the Pope, believe in apparitions.
Read the above links and refute my claim.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
What?! All I said was Liberals also believe in ghosts which is true and you make an accusation like that?
America is just the country that shows how all the written guarantees in the world for freedom are no protection against tyranny and oppression of the worst kind. There the politician has come to be looked upon as the very scum of society. - Peter Kropotkin
