Catholics and Liberals and Ghosts

[Manifesto]

Now, many of these believers in Satan may not see his intervention in the world, but many will.

If you think that many Christians don't believe that Satan is responsible for all the evil in the world, you need to watch more TV evangelists who regularly name Satan as the culprit.

That article more focuses on just belief in the Devil. And to those that do think the Devil is responsible for all bad things in the world I do not see those people any more different than ones that worshiped Greek gods/goddesses in order to explain natural events.

[spiltteeth]

Satan is real y'all....but for $9.99 I can exorcise the evil one from yr life!
Just pm me.

Also, all those bizarre preachers on that religious channel owe their private jets to satan, if they couldn't manipulate peoples fears referring to the devil they'd end up working...well, working where I work I guess.
Wow. All my righteousness turned sour in this post. Ouch.

[9]

Could someone please change the name of this thread to, "Catholics and Liberals and Ghosts, Oh My!" ?

[Hit The North]

That article more focuses on just belief in the Devil. And to those that do think the Devil is responsible for all bad things in the world I do not see those people any more different than ones that worshiped Greek gods/goddesses in order to explain natural events.

Neither do I - except there's a particularly malicious and sadistic turn to the belief in Satan - condemning those who 'sin' to an eternity of torture and misery.

Manifesto, as a Catholic, do you believe in Satan?

As a Catholic do you believe in the miraculous appearances of the Virgin Mary? Do you believe in the virgin birth?

As a communist do you believe that the Pope is appointed by God?

[Manifesto]

Manifesto, as a Catholic, do you believe in Satan?

For this I do not know, I have been thinking about my religious opinion recently and how I do not get why a loving God would send people to Earth just to go to Hell and that the Catholic Church most likely used that as a scare tactic.

As a Catholic do you believe in the miraculous appearances of the Virgin Mary? Do you believe in the virgin birth?

By miraculous appearances do you mean those wackos that think she appears in their food? Then no. Do I think she was a virgin? Hard to say up to Jesus's birth considering God can do almost anything and this is tough to say like what Dust Bunnies told me (when he asked me this one question) that God still has to abide to laws of physics but after his birth then of course not.

As a communist do you believe that the Pope is appointed by God?

I never really got how the Pope is appointed by God when it seems bureaucratic.

[JohnnyC]

For this I do not know, I have been thinking about my religious opinion recently and how I do not get why a loving God would send people to Earth just to go to Hell and that the Catholic Church most likely used that as a scare tactic.
By miraculous appearances do you mean those wackos that think she appears in their food? Then no. Do I think she was a virgin? Hard to say up to Jesus's birth considering God can do almost anything and this is tough to say like what Dust Bunnies told me (when he asked me this one question) that God still has to abide to laws of physics but after his birth then of course not.
I never really got how the Pope is appointed by God when it seems bureaucratic.

Why do you call yourself catholic then?

[ComradeOm]

Do I think she was a virgin? Hard to say up to Jesus's birth considering God can do almost anything and this is tough to say like what Dust Bunnies told me (when he asked me this one question) that God still has to abide to laws of physics but after his birth then of course not

So you insist that you are a Catholic yet you question the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

I never really got how the Pope is appointed by God when it seems bureaucratic.

It never struck you that the Church itself is bureaucratic?

[Manifesto]

Why do you call yourself catholic then?

1. It fits (this is a big part of it)
2. I have had my First Communion so technically I am Catholic (I know that does not mean I have to be but like I said it fits).

[Manifesto]

So you insist that you are a Catholic yet you question the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

Logically yes. When Dust Bunnies asked me "If God can do anything could he make a rock so heavy that not even he could lift it?" (yes I know he is atheist) he told me that God still has to abide to the laws of physics (as previously stated) so he would not be able to fit a square into a circle for example. So an egg has to be fertilized in order for a baby to be born.

It never struck you that the Church itself is bureaucratic?

Of course I have it, has been for many centuries.

[ComradeOm]

Logically yes. When Dust Bunnies asked me "If God can do anything could he make a rock so heavy that not even he could lift it?" (yes I know he is atheist) he told me that God still has to abide to the laws of physics (as previously stated) so he would not be able to fit a square into a circle for example. So an egg has to be fertilized in order for a baby to be born

All very interesting (I lie) but completely beside the point. This is that fact that Immaculate Conception is official Church doctrine. It doesn't matter a damn what Dust Bunnies (whoever they are) says but what the Pope's position is. And on this point you are explicitly disagreeing with a rather major aspect of Catholic dogma

Yet you insist in parading yourself as a Catholic

Of course I have it, has been for many centuries.

Yet you believe that this bureaucratic body is compatible with an anarchist stateless society? The Catholic Church is a fairly integral part of Catholicism

I have had my First Communion so technically I am Catholic

Technicalities have nothing to do with this. I've technically been a Catholic since I was a month or two old yet I don't feel the need to abide by that superstition today (now that I can actually think for myself) and I definitely don't consider Catholicism to be part of my political makeup

[Manifesto]

All very interesting (I lie) but completely beside the point. This is that fact that Immaculate Conception is official Church doctrine. It doesn't matter a damn what Dust Bunnies (whoever they are) says but what the Pope's position is. And on this point you are explicitly disagreeing with a rather major aspect of Catholic dogma

Yet you insist in parading yourself as a Catholic

Yet you believe that this bureaucratic body is compatible with an anarchist stateless society? The Catholic Church is a fairly integral part of Catholicism

Really parading? Like I said it FITS, I am actually anti-clerical so Christian would be better suited but it WON'T FIT and Dust Bunnies is a member on Revleft.

Technicalities have nothing to do with this. I've technically been a Catholic since I was a month or two old yet I don't feel the need to abide by that superstition today (now that I can actually think for myself) and I definitely don't consider Catholicism to be part of my political makeup

If I didn't think for myself I would be a Republican right now and in case I have not yet mentioned it enough yet I am not really Catholic and it fits.

[spiltteeth]

Jesus radicals is a pretty large anarchist Christian group, they have a website where you can ask questions.

For specific Catholic anarchists there is
http://catholicanarchy.org/

Also, I recommend Anarchy and Christianity by Mr. Jacques Ellul

As for hell, for what it's worth, I'm an orthodox Christian, and the idea that God is an angry figure who sends those He condemns to a place called Hell, where they spend eternity in torment separated from His presence, is missing from the Bible and unknown in the early church. While Heaven and Hell are decidedly real, they are experiential conditions rather than physical places. This is not the way traditional Western Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, has envisioned the afterlife. In Western thought Hell is a location, a place where God punishes the wicked, where they are cut off from God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Yet this concept occurs nowhere in the Bible.
While there is no question that according to the scriptures there is torment and "gnashing of teeth" for the wicked, and glorification for the righteous, and that this judgment comes from God, these destinies are not separate destinations. The Bible indicates that everyone comes before God in the next life, and it is because of being in God's presence that they either suffer eternally, or experience eternal joy. In other words, both the joy of heaven, and the torment of judgment, is caused by being eternally in the presence of the God. If one examines what the early Church Fathers wrote about "hell" and the afterlife, it will be seen that they too understood that there is no place called hell, and that both paradise and torment came from being in God's presence in the afterlife.
When you examine what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and what most Protestants believe about the afterlife, and compare that with the scriptures and early Church beliefs, you find large disparities. You will also find their innovative doctrines were not drawn from the Bible or historic Church doctrine, but rather from the mythology of the Middle Ages, juridical concepts, and enlightenment rationalizations, all alien to early Christian thought.
There is no "place" of torment, The "place" is actually a condition of either punishment ("hell") or paradise ("heaven") depending on how you experience the presence of God.
Experiencing God's presence in glory or in torment, as Paradise or as Punishment, is the heaven and hell of the Bible.

[Yazman]

So far, "dude", you're the only one talking about apparitions - in your attempt to claim I said what I didn't say.

Nevertheless, while you mention it; how do you explain stories such as these which have great currency in the Catholic church:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...o-Lourdes.html

and this:

So, taking this evidence into account, I'll restate the argument that many Catholics believe in ghosts. Although to satisfy your love of evasive language, I'll modify my claim and say that Catholics, including the Pope, believe in apparitions.

Read the above links and refute my claim.

Marian apparitions are an entirely different subject and I do not object to your pointing them out.

What I was taking issue with, was your portrayal of the holy spirit/ghost as an apparition when clearly it isn't. Also lol @ your putting dude in quote marks - you got some sort of issue with my language? No need to be so highly strung.

Have you ever considered as an atheist that obviously by definition has no stake in theistic faith that actively setting out on the endevour of developing a precise and detailed working knowledge of that precise thing is a rather fruitless use of time?

Understanding the basics of something you seek to criticise is hardly an "endeavour of developing a precise and detailed working knowledge of that precise thing." This is something that applies to everything, it isn't even specific to our criticism of religion. When somebody doesn't understand the basics about something, they need to learn about it or otherwise keep their mouth shut until they do.

I don't promote ignorance in any form but there are priests who don't know the entire labyrinth of christian doctrine and they've wasted their lives on purpetuating it, surely it's better to forget some of this idiotic drivel and let it fade from the consciousness of society than to teach ourselves it's every facet and ensure it's survival and resurgance in the emotionally and mentally infirm people who feel the only thng that will get them through tomorrow is the unprovable molestation of random chance by an invisible magic sky father (or miracles as they call them).

LMAO, nice try. You make it seem as if I advocate such a thing, when really all I said was that its stupid to criticise something without having a real understanding of its basic ideas. You can't get a catholic person thinking about the holy spirit from our perspective by just saying "lol you believe in ghosts", they will just switch off. Its important to know what you're talking about when you criticise something, whatever it is.

You don't stamp out idiocy by reading widely on the subject, simply not being an idiot is much more effective.

Hey, we have a bootstrapper on our hands! Abandon ship!

[Robert]

So you insist that you are a Catholic yet you question the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

10 to 1 you're talking about the Virgin Birth, which has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

[Richard Nixon]

10 to 1 you're talking about the Virgin Birth, which has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Also a lot of Christians think that doctrine is unChristian as it implies that someone other then Jesus can be free from sin. These Christians include me BTW.

[Robert]

Doesn't imply that to me, but ... Whatever.