Thread: Why Are the Taliban Better then Americans

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  1. #81
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    The US made mistakes in it's past but the US has been trying to correct the mistakes.
    Really, How? It (government) has'nt even admitted any mistakes, and the way things look, its going to the same.

    I don't have an immediate source but if the US had encouraged an Israeli attack against Iran there would have been a strike.
    So you are arguing that because the US does not ENCOURAGE an INSANE attack, they are responsible for it not happening? Are you out of your mind?

    Also Israel is not an apathareid regime against Palestinians, Arabs have full rights of a citizen in Israel, the Palestinians are the children of those who had fled from Israel to Egypt and Jordan and the latter countries treats the Palestinians no better and quite worse then Israel.
    In the west bank and Gaza (especially Gaza) the palestinians do not have almost any right, their entire infastructure is controlled by the Isrealis and all movement is controlled by Isreal and the settlements essencailly can take over whenever they want. Its a prison.

    Not really, is the US this corrupt?
    If there was a crime syndicate in the US that had more money than the US government and more power than the US government I bet they would be.

    The Founding Fathers genuinely wanted freedom and to advance the human condition. Read some of Thomas Jefferson or James Madison's writings.
    Just like with Lenin, what people write, and how they run a country can be very 2 different things. Also Thomas Jefferson was just one man, there were many others that made it quite clear that property was to take priority.

    A lot of Northerners did join the Civil War to fight slavery and as I've stated many times I don't care why something happens as long as the desirable goal is reached. Also wage slavery is nonsense as many Americans have advanced from the working class to the middle class and some to the upper class.
    The fact that some soldeirs did it for that reason does'nt prove that it was the reason for launching the war.

    The fact that its slightly possible to escape wage slavery does'nt make it legitimate.

    Which resulted in Germany's economy collapsing and very bad for investment.
    American Buisiness had much more intrest in the Allies wining the war than Germany, things are not so black and white.

    North Korea attacked South Korea thus it's perfectly moral for the US to defend South Korea. BTW, I'm Korean American so I think I have a bigger say in this.
    So do you honestly believe that if South Korea invaded North Korea the US would defend North Korea?

    You seem eager to include comparisons so why shouldn't I?
    Because your not making a comparison, I was refering to a specific situation in vietman, you responded by arguing about Iraq, your having a make believe conversation.

    Fuck them, that's a stupid reason and I can't see why we should listen to them on that when Saudi Arabia invited us to protect them anymore then we should listen to Fred Phelps.
    The Saudi Arabian ROYALTY invited the US to protect THEIR POWER.

    And cheaper oil results in corporate profits. Also the last time I checked the Iraqi government does have much say over oil.
    Yes but the US has much say over the Iraqi government. Again things are not so black and white, cheaper oil does not always result in more corporate profits, jeeezz, if your going to defend Capitalism at least learn the basics.

    Not everything is due to control; what about the US intervention is Bosnia?
    As too Bosnia, If you have some time watch. Noam Chomsky interview.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Smh...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAWi7...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLet...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grqPw...eature=related

    Then why has every communist experiment failed? The Soviet Union, China, North Korea etc.
    Those were not communist experiments, and I can prove it to you, did the people have democratic control of the economy? No, not even socialist.

    The people that led the coup visited the US government, the US government recognised the coup immedietly, the opposition gets direct funding from the US, there were papers from the US government showing people knew a coup was very likely. (The OIG IS part of the US government btw).
  2. #82
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    Really, How? It (government) has'nt even admitted any mistakes, and the way things look, its going to the same.
    Where have you been in the last few years? The US has apologised for a lot of it's foreign policy actions in it's last two centuries.


    So you are arguing that because the US does not ENCOURAGE an INSANE attack, they are responsible for it not happening? Are you out of your mind?
    According to the WORLD Tribune:

    U.S. nixed Israel's request for bunker-busters

    TEL AVIV — The United States rejected a recent Israeli request for advanced detection systems as well as bunker-busters capable of locating and destroying Iranian nuclear weapons sites.
    Israeli officials said the administration was persuaded by Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that such systems could be used to facilitate an Israeli air strike on Iran's nuclear weapons facilities.

    "It [United States] does not see an action against Iran as the right thing to do at the moment," Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said.

    In the west bank and Gaza (especially Gaza) the palestinians do not have almost any right, their entire infastructure is controlled by the Isrealis and all movement is controlled by Isreal and the settlements essencailly can take over whenever they want. Its a prison.
    Most Americans, Palestinians, and Israelis support therefore a two-state solution to this. However the problem is that Palestine has been the base of countless terrorist attacks against Israel. Also Arab nations have not accepted Palestinian refugees too and just use them for propaganda purposes.



    If there was a crime syndicate in the US that had more money than the US government and more power than the US government I bet they would be.
    Probably true.



    Just like with Lenin, what people write, and how they run a country can be very 2 different things. Also Thomas Jefferson was just one man, there were many others that made it quite clear that property was to take priority.
    Except unlike Lenin the Founding Fathers did turn the USA into a democracy and by 1830 or so all white males could vote. Also which of the Founding Fathers other then Aaron Burr were such self-centered egomaniacs.


    The fact that some soldeirs did it for that reason does'nt prove that it was the reason for launching the war.
    As I've said I don't care why something happens as long as it acheives a desirable goal.
    The fact that its slightly possible to escape wage slavery does'nt make it legitimate.
    It's very likely to move up the hierarchy and now with labour unions life is decent for the American worker.


    American Buisiness had much more intrest in the Allies wining the war than Germany, things are not so black and white.
    In a limited sense probable. But also a lot businessmen were pacifists like Andrew Carnegie who was also in the Anti-Imperialist League.



    So do you honestly believe that if South Korea invaded North Korea the US would defend North Korea?
    No but it would use diplomatic pressure for South Korea to stop such an idiotic action.

    Because your not making a comparison, I was refering to a specific situation in vietman, you responded by arguing about Iraq, your having a make believe conversation.
    Then back to Vietnam. The problem is that according to the philosophy of self-determination there were enough anti-communist Vietnamese to warrant a Republic of Vietnam.


    The Saudi Arabian ROYALTY invited the US to protect THEIR POWER.
    Who are the rulers of Saudi Arabia.



    Yes but the US has much say over the Iraqi government. Again things are not so black and white, cheaper oil does not always result in more corporate profits, jeeezz, if your going to defend Capitalism at least learn the basics.
    The US does have some say in Iraq true but Iraq has also demanded that the US pull it's troops out and has had other disagreements with the USA.

    Also if the oil prices are too high people will drive less and thus use oil less bringing down profits. This has happened in the last few months.


    As too Bosnia, If you have some time watch. Noam Chomsky interview.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Smh...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAWi7...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLet...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grqPw...eature=related



    Those were not communist experiments, and I can prove it to you, did the people have democratic control of the economy? No, not even socialist.
    Then please tell me true experiments of socialism/leftism/communism/anarchism


    The people that led the coup visited the US government, the US government recognised the coup immedietly, the opposition gets direct funding from the US, there were papers from the US government showing people knew a coup was very likely. (The OIG IS part of the US government btw).
    And people who have the led the claim that the coup was backed by the US are guess what.... Venezuelans.
    2+2=4
  3. #83
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    Why are the Talibans better then the American liberators of Afghanistan? You seem to support them only because you want them to defeat American imperialists. But that's idiotic as then you'd have to support the CSA, Nazi Germany, and other unsavory governments. Maybe you ought to decide objectively who'll be better for freedom and the human condition rather then just say "The Taliban'll kick US ass and that's awesome!"
    when did anyone here claim that the taliban were good?

    The reason we oppose the american prescence is a point of principle; that the coalition occupation represents an act of imperialism whose main prerogitive is the seizure of the gas supplies in the region. Moreover i find it rather inconsistent of americans who laud the taliban governance despite the fact it was their government who aided them against the soviets.
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    when did anyone here claim that the taliban were good?

    The reason we oppose the american prescence is a point of principle; that the coalition occupation represents an act of imperialism whose main prerogitive is the seizure of the gas supplies in the region. Moreover i find it rather inconsistent of americans who laud the taliban governance despite the fact it was their government who aided them against the soviets.
    You could say Iraq was a war for oil but Afghanistan isn't one, bro. The gas supplies are pretty minor compared to say the resources to be found in Iran or Kazhakstan.

    Also do I have to say this a million times: Not all Afghan resisters to the Soviets were the Taliban!
    2+2=4
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    You could say Iraq was a war for oil
    But of course, this was made clear by the military code-name for the war - Operation Iraqi Freedom ... ie .. Operation Iraqi Liberation = O.I.L.
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    You could say Iraq was a war for oil but Afghanistan isn't one, bro. The gas supplies are pretty minor compared to say the resources to be found in Iran or Kazhakstan.
    Hence my use of the term region.

    Theres important gas conduits running through afghanistan to gas rich countries like the ones you mentioned. If you're the CEO of a gas company, it makes sense that the government in charge of the conduits is a puppet of American/allied interests. Especially considering it borders China with nearly 2 billion potential customers.

    Also do I have to say this a million times: Not all Afghan resisters to the Soviets were the Taliban!
    But the americans still supported them bar none, including no less than bin laden himself who recieved CIA training.
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    But of course, this was made clear by the military code-name for the war - Operation Iraqi Freedom ... ie .. Operation Iraqi Liberation = O.I.L.
    I think acronym conspiracy theories are bullshit.

    Hence my use of the term region.

    Theres important gas conduits running through afghanistan to gas rich countries like the ones you mentioned. If you're the CEO of a gas company, it makes sense that the government in charge of the conduits is a puppet of American/allied interests. Especially considering it borders China with nearly 2 billion potential customers.
    Then why wasn't Afghanistan invaded before 9-11?

    But the americans still supported them bar none, including no less than bin laden himself who recieved CIA training.
    "The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend" philosophy, obviously.
    2+2=4
  8. #88
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    I think acronym conspiracy theories are bullshit.



    Then why wasn't Afghanistan invaded before 9-11?
    Because 9/11 was the perfect smokescreen. An outright invasion would not have been politically possible because they'd blatantly be violating the principles that they've been eschewing to the world for nearly 50 years.


    "The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend" philosophy, obviously.
    i see it more as 'they've made their bed, now they have to sleep in it'.
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    Because 9/11 was the perfect smokescreen. An outright invasion would not have been politically possible because they'd blatantly be violating the principles that they've been eschewing to the world for nearly 50 years.
    COUGH COUGH Humanitarian Intervention COUGH COUGH. Honestly, if you believe A is A and 2 + 2 = 4 you should also realize that the war in Afghanistan is due to the 9-11 terrorist attacks.



    i see it more as 'they've made their bed, now they have to sleep in it'.
    Anyways, the Soviet-Afghan War was one of self-determination. If you don't support the current Afghan war you shouldn't support that one.
    2+2=4
  10. #90
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    I think acronym conspiracy theories are bullshit.
    This has nothing to do with any 'acronym conspiracy', rather it's merely an observation that in some cases an acronym matches quite well with the realities surrounding the subject matter.
  11. #91
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    COUGH COUGH Humanitarian Intervention COUGH COUGH. Honestly, if you believe A is A and 2 + 2 = 4 you should also realize that the war in Afghanistan is due to the 9-11 terrorist attacks.
    Well at least you concede that it had nothing to do with 'liberating the afghans'. Otherwise, as you said, why did they have to wait till 9/11 to take the initiative?

    There is equally if not worse atrocities happening in Zimbabwe by the ruling authority but i don't see them lifting a finger. If you look at the places where the US sticks its nose, you see the common denominator seems to be the presence of a natural source of wealth of some type or other.



    Anyways, the Soviet-Afghan War was one of self-determination. If you don't support the current Afghan war you shouldn't support that one.
    I didnt(wasnt born yet?), i dont think the USSR had any right to invade but then i was never a fan of post lenin USSR so i dont make any apologies for them.
  12. #92
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    You could say Iraq was a war for oil but Afghanistan isn't one, bro. The gas supplies are pretty minor compared to say the resources to be found in Iran or Kazhakstan.

    Also do I have to say this a million times: Not all Afghan resisters to the Soviets were the Taliban!
    have you not heard of the caspian pipeline?
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    Well at least you concede that it had nothing to do with 'liberating the afghans'. Otherwise, as you said, why did they have to wait till 9/11 to take the initiative?

    There is equally if not worse atrocities happening in Zimbabwe by the ruling authority but i don't see them lifting a finger. If you look at the places where the US sticks its nose, you see the common denominator seems to be the presence of a natural source of wealth of some type or other.



    Well the more immediate reason is that the US was heading toward a mildly isolationist phase after the Cold War ended.
    2+2=4
  14. #94
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    Well the more immediate reason is that the US was heading toward a mildly isolationist phase after the Cold War ended.
    the US is currently in its unilateralist phase, the crimes are still being waged in Zimbabwe and the US is still doing nothing about it. Inconsistency much?
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    American Revolutionary War: Happened because the colonials didn't wish taxation without representation (the immediate cause) and overall causes of distance and George III trying to centralize the colonies.

    War of 1812: Happened due to impressment

    Mexican-American War: Possible war for resources although the immediate cause was over the annexation of Texas.

    American Civil War: War over rebellion and slavery.

    Spanish-American War: Possible war for resources although the immediate cause was the Cuban War of Independence and the explosion of the Maine.

    World War I: The German U-Boats attacked American shipping.

    World War II: Roosevelt tried to defend China by launching embargos against Japan. He was trying to manuver into a war but that's the only way the US could enter a war.

    Korean War: A war of defence against North Korean aggression.

    Vietnam War: A war of defence against North Vietnamese aggression.

    First Gulf War: Partially due to oil resources but we liberated Kuwait also so why not?

    Afghan War: War of self-defense against a country that was launching terrorist attacks against us.

    Second Gulf War: War due to mistaken beliefs of WMD and general mistakes. Partially possibly due to il.

    So of the wars of America at best one third of America's wars were over resources.



    Possibly. Also possible is that a pure communist system is impossible on a large scale.



    American Revolutionary War: Agreed.

    War of 1812: Agreed.

    Mexican-American War: I cant say that it was un-justified for the U.S. to defend Texas but the annexation of California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming was un-called for. Nothing less than conquest.

    American Civil War: Granted, it did bring an end to slavery in the U.S. but was at it's core a war of aggression against the Confederacy because of economics. Lincoln wanted to keep the Southern agriculture under Union control and only brought slavery into the equation in 1863.

    Spanish-American War: No evidence was ever found that Spain sunk the Maine.

    World War I: Germany gave warning that it would sink ships carrying military supplies to the British and although the sinkng of the Lusitania was tragic, it cant be said that it was un-provoked.

    World War II: The U.S. had no business being in the war, Pearl Harbor was a tragedy but only happend because aid was being given to Allied forces.

    Korean War: Although North Korea is awful and the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, the U.S. had no place involving itself in the Civil War of an other country. The only interest here was in Cold War politics.

    Vietnam War: Like in Korea, the U.S. had no place interfering in a Civil War that didnt concern it. Over 500,000 American troops died and atleast 2 million Vietnamese if not more.

    Gulf War: Purely for resources, the U.S. had supported Saddam Hussein in the past but turned on him when it was convenient. They did the same to Noriega.

    War in Afghanistan: al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11; an organization that uses terrorism to further a violent revisionist interpretation of Islam. Afghanistan was not responsible and the Taliban condemed the attacks.

    War in Iraq: Over-zealousness and faulty information for motives that I really dont know. Six years later, thousands dead and no progress.

    It's not about resources, it's about justifiable reasons. Some were, many were not. As a pacifist I see no war as having reason but ideally, the enemy must directly attack you in order for war to be declared. To declare war means to begin something that will inevitably end the life of human-beings. You had better be dead-on-balls sure that the people you go to war on are guilty of what you've accused them.

    Not only is it possible, it's fact. No economic system can reasonably work on anything other than a large-scale. If it's attempted compromises will be made that lead away from the guiding principles it intended and injustices never meant to be done will happen.
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  16. #96
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    Yeah, it's called being human.

    I wont defend American military action but to be fair, it's only one nation and can only play god to a certain extent.

    Everyone expects the U.S. to be greater than it is whether good or bad.

    9/11 conspiracy theorists expected jets to be alarmed right then and there so as to shoot down the planes before they reached their targets.

    Obama supporters expected him to fix health-care and the war within atleast four months.

    During his term, the entire radical Left and Right saw Bush as the cause of all the world's problems.

    While there is reason to some of these things, the expectations are unrealistic and the standards too high. At the end of the day the U.S. is administered by a human government; operated by people who make mistakes, carry prejudices, differ in politics, and can only do so much. Why would they bother to look beyond their immediate surroundings while doing work, I dont and I dont know anyone who does.

    This is a reason why government is a burden. It leaves the lives of so many in the hands of people busy enough with their own lives.
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    American Civil War: Granted, it did bring an end to slavery in the U.S. but was at it's core a war of aggression against the Confederacy because of economics. Lincoln wanted to keep the Southern agriculture under Union control and only brought slavery into the equation in 1863.
    President Abe Lincoln simply wanted to preserve the Union. I don't think it was because he wanted to control Southern agricultural.

    Spanish-American War: No evidence was ever found that Spain sunk the Maine.
    However the Americans believed it was Spain's fault and that's why the war happened.

    World War II: The U.S. had no business being in the war, Pearl Harbor was a tragedy but only happend because aid was being given to Allied forces.
    Which was the only moral option for the United States. Are you saying that the US shouldn't have fought in World War 2 and let Hitler and the Jap Imperialists run amok in Europe and China respectively?

    Korean War: Although North Korea is awful and the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, the U.S. had no place involving itself in the Civil War of an other country. The only interest here was in Cold War politics.
    It's perfectly moral to defend an invasion of a country.

    Gulf War: Purely for resources, the U.S. had supported Saddam Hussein in the past but turned on him when it was convenient. They did the same to Noriega.
    It was Saddam Hussein's fault. We were fine with him until 1990 when he launched an imperialist invasion of Kuwait. Once again the US defended national soverigenty.

    War in Afghanistan: al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11; an organization that uses terrorism to further a violent revisionist interpretation of Islam. Afghanistan was not responsible and the Taliban condemed the attacks.
    However Afghanistan refused to hand over the terrorists and shut down the Al-Qaeda training camps.

    War in Iraq: Over-zealousness and faulty information for motives that I really dont know. Six years later, thousands dead and no progress.
    "No progress"? I think even the most die-hard Iraq War opponent should recognize the fact that Iraq has stablized, is a democracy, and on the road to a better condition.

    It's not about resources, it's about justifiable reasons. Some were, many were not. As a pacifist I see no war as having reason but ideally, the enemy must directly attack you in order for war to be declared. To declare war means to begin something that will inevitably end the life of human-beings. You had better be dead-on-balls sure that the people you go to war on are guilty of what you've accused them.

    Not only is it possible, it's fact. No economic system can reasonably work on anything other than a large-scale. If it's attempted compromises will be made that lead away from the guiding principles it intended and injustices never meant to be done will happen.
    I agree with you in theory.
    2+2=4
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    Richard: Jap, while used historically, is no longer an acceptable term and considered offensive. Please refrain from using it on this forum.
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    Richard: Jap, while used historically, is no longer an acceptable term and considered offensive. Please refrain from using it on this forum.
    OK.
    2+2=4

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