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All that means is that your church does not utilise that particular means of maintaining out-group hostility. It does not preclude others being used, nor does it change the fact that other churches are perfectly willing and vocal about doing so.
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
Incorrect. It also indicates that there is nothing inherently homophobic about religion, christianity, or churches. (I mentioned my church and one other, and they are both mainline and enormous.)
The religious, of course, just like the anti-religious, can be wrong sometimes because they are human. Which of the two is more intolerant of the other we might debate separately sometime. I never hear any expression of hatred or ridicule in my church. For that, I go ...
here!
Hasty generalisation. You can't make a statement about churches in general from one particular sample. On the other hand, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church as well as numerous Protestant sects are well known for their homophobia.
Yawn. The "hatred" and "ridicule" expressed on this forum is nothing compared to what your co-religionists have been getting away with for centuries. Come back to me when anti-theists devastate entire continents in the name of atheism, oh and bring some evidence of your God too, that would be nice.The religious, of course, just like the anti-religious, can be wrong sometimes because they are human. Which of the two is more intolerant of the other we might debate separately sometime. I never hear any expression of hatred or ridicule in my church. For that, I go ...
here!
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
You know perfectly well that most of the apparitions of Communism in the world so far have been homophobic to some degree. I believe that last in Nepal just the other day was homophobic--should Communism be judged by them?
Could one say that Communism is "well known" for being homophobic?
Most "communist" apparitions in hitsory have been in the third world, in very poor places that have a long history of cultural homophobia.
Homophobia has nothing to do with communism, or capitalism for that matter.
Well, if by "homophobia" you mean denunciation of homosexual acts, I can't argue; this is the position of most Christian churches. As Bud noted, however, there have been no gay wonderlands under any communist regime to date. And I do wonder why criticism of homosexual acts is considered "phobia." I guess the idea is we are all deep down afraid that we too may be gay.Are Communists "Capitalphobes"?
Yes, Noxion, I do accept that here have been many awful consequences of religion.
But as one of my Jewish mentors, Dennis Prager says: What one almost never hears described are the deleterious consequences of secularism -- the terrible developments that have accompanied the breakdown of traditional religion and belief in God. For every thousand students who learn about the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials, maybe two learn to associate Gulag, Auschwitz, The Cultural Revolution and the Cambodian genocide with secular regimes and ideologies.
Can I blame atheism for Cambodia and Auschwitz if you blame the Catholic Church for the Crusades?
No. Blame the Catholic Church, Pol Pot and Hitler for being murderous tossers.
Libertarian socialist...
Economic left/right -8.00
Social libertarian/authoritarian -7.28
-7.5 moral order
4 moral rules
Socially-orientated, materialist, internationalist, protectionist, controlled-market kind of person, who also seems quite marxist
And Marx and Lenin and Stalin and Trotsky. And Bush and Obama. And Blair and Brown and that cutie Maggie Thatcher. Oh hell, everybody's a murderous tosser.
A hangover from more primitive times, unsurprisingly dominated by religion. Since I'm not a Marxist-Leninist, I don't really have any sympathy for such regimes in the first place.
Considering what some of the most prominent "critics" end up getting caught doing (Hi there, Ted Haggard!), that doesn't seem too far off the mark.
No, because what happened in Cambodia and Auschwitz wasn't done for the sake of atheism. I find it especially hilarious that you bring up Auschwitz, particularly since anti-semitism in Germany had some of its roots in the vicious writings of that vile turd, Martin Luther.
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
Most religions in general have aspects that are hang overs from ancient times--it's all pretty much the same for religion as for Communism. Enlightenment takes time.
And lucky for you Trotskyism never took hold ANYWHERE so it can't be blamed for ANYTHING.
Still no need to drag our feet.
You seriously think I'm a Trotskyist? That's the funniest thing I've read all day!And lucky for you Trotskyism never took hold ANYWHERE so it can't be blamed for ANYTHING.
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
Stupid of me. My apologies.You seriously think I'm a Trotskyist? That's the funniest thing I've read all day!
"Especially hilarious"? Well then, you're what Groucho referred to as an "easy laugher." Glad to brighten up your dreary day.
But ... While I've already conceded that terrible things have been done in the name of religion, if you are going to blame Auschwitz on Martin Luther, you need a vacation. At least.
You've still not provided any evidence that Auschwitz had anything to do with atheism, while conversely it fits perfectly as a consquence of Christian-inspired antisemitism throughout the ages."Especially hilarious"? Well then, you're what Groucho referred to as an "easy laugher." Glad to brighten up your dreary day.
But ... While I've already conceded that terrible things have been done in the name of religion, if you are going to blame Auschwitz on Martin Luther, you need a vacation. At least.
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
Hitler was opposed to religion personally although publically he wasn't. Also a lot of Nazis were neopagans.
2+2=4
That makes him an opportunist. As an anti-theist atheist I wear my opposition to religion on my sleeve. Whatever Hitler's private statements, it is his actions that matter, actions that included banning Freethinkers' organisations as well as working closely with Pope Pius XII.
Well, Himmler certainly had an interest in such things. Nevertheless it is irrelevant as the Nazis were perfectly willing to use the religious faith of the German people for their own ends.
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
Well, that's a reasonable complaint.
I have to stretch here, though hopefully not as much as you stretched back to Martin Luther. Here goes: the goals and ideals that motivated the creation of Auschwitz were amoral at best. I say immoral, i.e., godless.
The problem was that there was nothing inherent in Nazi ideology, no inner moral voice, to resist and countervail the impulse of eliminating "inferior" races. (Note too that the Jews were surely the most religious people in Europe. I'm not sure what that means but I want to think about it. )
One would have had to look outside of that ideology to know what was "wrong" with it. And I cannot imagine that any modern pope, or even crusading medieval popes of the low middle ages, would have countenanced intentional killing of handicapped, gypsy and Jewish children because of their condition of birth or any other reason, but especially that reason.
You will protest, as you have elsewhere above, that there are other sources of morality besides Deism and Christianity that could have and should have informed Hitler, Himmler, and Eichmann. So their "atheism" is immaterial. I get that and you may be right. But I'm still not sure what those sources are. "Secular humanism" is a little squishy as a source of moral authority.
on edit: as for "Hitler's Pope," the author of that book has reportedly softened his charges:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope
Immoral and godless are not the same thing - unless you believe that it's impossible to be moral without belief in God. In which case, you would be wrong.
No, from the Nazi perspective the elimination of the Jews (and others, such as homosexuals, gypsies and communists) was seen as the right thing to do. Their "inner moral voice" was based on racism and the rule of the strong over the weak.
Bull. Murdering people because of erroneous conclusions drawn from crackpot Aryanism can be demonstrated as a shitty thing to do.
So why the fuck didn't Pius do more than what precious little, if anything, he actually ended up doing? Why didn't he use whatever political/diplomatic clout he had to actually do something about Nazi atrocities? He may not have been a collaborator, but he was certainly a moral weakling.
No, their atheism is irrelevant because their atrocities were carried out to further Nazi ideology, not atheism.
"Squishy"? What the Dickens is that supposed to mean?
The Human Progress Group
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Check out my speculative fiction project: NOVA MUNDI
Squishy is supposed to mean what it does mean: 2 : not firm, steady, or fixed : soft: as a : lenient 2 <squishy judges> b : imprecise <squishy estimates>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/squishy
Okay. But yesterday he was "working closely" with Hitler. According to somebody:
Right. But the point is that you can't do it without going outside of crackpot Aryanism. You might demonstrate it by citation to the Vth Commandment, but I doubt that Mein Kampf covers it very extensively. Or does it? (I don't have a copy.)
Cordially,
Dickens
