Where's the "yes, frequently" option?
Yes, although very occasionally (*cough*cough*)
No, and people who do should be shot to death
It's outrageous that you even made a thread about this!
No, although I don't care if people decide to. It's their lives.
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Thoughts on Pornography?
I'm curious to know people's thoughts on pornography. But before you reply, consider the following information:
1- We are the result of evolution, and evolution has "programmed" us (so to speak) into engaging in sexual reproduction.
2-For us to engage in sexual reproduction, we have outside stimulus that arouse our internal sexual desire (which is present in more or less 99,9% of all humans). This outside stimulus comes from various factors such as physical appearance, smell, shoulder-to-waste ratio, facial symmetry, etc.
3-This desire is NOT voluntary, its spontaneous and instinctive, although it can be controlled after we have experienced it (this means we are ultimately responsible for our actions whether we have sex, we rape or we just do nothing).
So keeping this in mind, which may or may not be scientifically accurate facts, would you use force to prevent someone who has the desire, but not the means to achieve sex with other person voluntarily, or who finds that he'd rather enjoy himself alone than to pretend to love another person just to get in her pants, and therefore decided to watch pornography?
Also a personal question, which you are free to answer or to evade the question, for both sexes: Do you watch pornography?
If not, is there a very strong reason why you don't do it? Would you forbid people who do?
To speculate is human; to hedge, divine
Where's the "yes, frequently" option?
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That' why I placed the *cough*cough* in the first option
Last edited by Havet; 6th August 2009 at 15:16.
To speculate is human; to hedge, divine
I used to, though I recently stopped. Previously, I was satisfied with the argument "it's not hurting anyone," but given the fact that pornography, strip clubs, etc. are marketed almost entirely for (straight) men, I have felt a growing discomfort. I don't yet have a clear position on the matter, but for me it's enough that as I try to rethink relationships from a feminist viewpoint, I need to seriously consider the effects of an industry that so thoroughly objectifies and degrades women. A cursory glance at most porn movie titles supports this point. Additionally, while we may very well be biologically prone to different sorts of sexual stimulation, from a more spiritual (Buddhist) perspective, I am interested in non-attachment and loving compassion when developing relationships, which seems wholly unsuited to "slamming big tit *****es."This said, I do not believe in banning pornography, and I'd say that this is a topic worthy of open discussion just because it is complicated, from both "sexual liberation" and harm perspectives. I'd also be interested to know what queer comrades think, ie. if heteronormative roles are reinscribed in officially gay porn.
Well that is an interesting argument. Although if you're worried that by watching porn you might create a bigger demand for porn therefore continuing any "society oppression" upon women then i'd recommend not paying for porn at all (there are some websites with free porn). An if you are worried about when visiting those websites they will count your visit and still count it as a demand, then just download some porn and keep watching it until you die (you might get bored though).I used to, though I recently stopped. Previously, I was satisfied with the argument "it's not hurting anyone," but given the fact that pornography, strip clubs, etc. are marketed almost entirely for (straight) men, I have felt a growing discomfort. I don't yet have a clear position on the matter, but for me it's enough that as I try to rethink relationships from a feminist viewpoint, I need to seriously consider the effects of an industry that so thoroughly objectifies and degrades women. A cursory glance at most porn movie titles supports this point. Additionally, while we may very well be biologically prone to different sorts of sexual stimulation, from a more spiritual (Buddhist) perspective, I am interested in non-attachment and loving compassion when developing relationships, which seems wholly unsuited to "slamming big tit *****es."
I don't think the industry is consciously objectifying and degrading women. After all, if you're looking for blame, you should blame people, because the industry is responding to the demand. If they make more money by treating women in the movies in a certain way then they'll do it.
And yes, some men are much responsible for this objectifying. Some men think of some women just as objects, although I must say, and this goes back to first post, that one must remind that it is in both parties self interest to look for a mate, therefore some women will also "bring themselves lower" to try and find a sexual partner. Hopefully this is not always the case. But really, most girls of my age (18-19yo) just care about partying and getting laid, and the same goes for most guys, although most guys will admit that as if its some sort of ability, while some girls will not admit it. Notice my bolded "some", because i don't like to collectivize my arguments this much. But as far as my observation has allowed me to, most people really only care about party and fcking. I'll be glad to be proven wrong on this one though.
Last edited by Havet; 6th August 2009 at 20:15.
To speculate is human; to hedge, divine
I know you can get porn for free, or whatever, but my larger point remains that we are dealing with an industry that objectifies women. It may very well be true like you said that both men and women can and do objectify each other, but speaking of egalitarianism it's pretty obvious men and women are not equals and thus there should be greater emphasis on men reflecting on their subtle and not-so-subtle sexism. I'm also unconvinced by the "demand" argument. The porn industry is not some sort of empirical given we just have to deal with, like the sun and the sky, but a social relation. I mean, are you relying on the old sexist trope that men just need more sex than women, and thus they "naturally" take up 95% of the demand? Frankly, I'm not dealing at the level of anthropomorphisms, ie. "Jimmy can fuck Kelly and be nice," but the wider structure and system. Please don't mistake that for some sort of vague, misguided generalization, ie. all people who watch porn are terrible, terrible people.
I think the problem with pornography is not actually a problem of pornography as such, but rather a problem of the patriarchal capitalist system in which it is produced. It's a bit analogous to prostitution; if a woman wishes to be a prostitute because she finds it an enjoyable line of work, more power to her, but if she is forced into it by economic circumstances (which is usually the case, IMO), the economic system that gives rise to them needs to be overthrown.
I need to think some more about this...
"Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter--tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms further.... And one fine morning----
So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."
F. Scott Fitzgerald
Political Compass
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Pornography is like going hungry to a banquet in which one is not allowed even to touch the food.
i don't like porn anymore. like most teenage boys i used to look at it but i havent for like, 1-2 years now. i dont get anything from it, no need.
Ivan "Bonebreaker" Khutorskoy16.11.2009"We won't forget, we won't forgive"
no - because of its connection to trafficking
I despise people who are against porn as such: I think that the "feminist" wing of the anti-pornography movement is really the worst kind of anti-feminist. They use the most ridiculous reactionary language. They're not against patriarchy, they're against sexuality, male and female, straight and gay. That assists patriarchy, and weakens feminism.
That said, of course we live in a horrendously dysfunctional sexual culture, and a horrendously sexist economy. Much of modern pornography reflects this - in the ideas reflected about women, and the material reality of their exploitation. But there's no reason that pornography - sexual imagery used for sexual enjoyment - is inherently wrong. In fact even in our society, there's both evidence that pornography can be part of healthy sexual culture, and there is solidly feminist pornography, including a breadth of lesbian pornography (ie. aimed at a lesbian audience). If that is sexually exploitative, then you're arguing that no sex is okay, and with that I can't agree.
I am decidely with the pro-sex side of feminism. Hard. And though there's no way to verify this over the internet, it really is largely political. Anti-sex feminism, which made a kind of sense in the way-back world of the 70s, has both lost its radical edge and adopted the ugliest essentialist ideas about the anti-sexual woman dirtied by the sexual man. This is totally reactionary, but comprises a disturbing part of modern "radical" feminism. We should have progessed. That Simone de Beauvoir was more progessive and sensible in the 1940s than mainstream feminism is today should make us all ashamed.
proof?
That's like saying marijuana leads to harder drugs - and there's no proof of that as well. So show us where you got that information, because i wasn't aware of such relationship.
To speculate is human; to hedge, divine
i think porn need improvement.
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
1- Why should the emphasis be greater on men than on women?
2- The porn industry is a social relation, but its empirically given and we have to deal with it. Its not that men need more sex than women, but as the biological animal that we are, men usually are the ones looking for females. They [women] just need to sit alone and stay healthy and men will come after them. This also happens with a great deal of other species. This is why for most women they hardly need to compete with each other to get a male to have sex with them.
EDIT: so this is why men take 95% of the demand for porn. Men are biologically made to look for a female. We have an instinctive drive for it.
To speculate is human; to hedge, divine
Arguably, not paying for porn is the same as not paying for any other form of entertainment. We'll all still download music, for instance. We all know not "every" band we listen to is rolling in cash. I download albums from very obscure bands that could very well use my money.
I would still advocate not paying for porn because the industry is so corrupt. However, they still benefit when you view free sites. Those sites generate advertising revenue. When I buy a vegetarian or vegan product at a store, I probably hurt animals. I give money to someone who buys meat.
It's all about where you choose to draw your line. Society places a very high value on sexuality. I think that's their right. They can value something as much as they feel it's important. I think they tend to both over and undervalue it at times. However, I think most men see the exploitation of women in pornography and say, yeah, it's bad, but the benefit people get out of it is worth it.
Of course, the benefit becomes justified as a larger amount of people utilize the good. You can try and escape the exploitation by watching specific pornography. However, that's often boyfriends seeking revenge on their girlfriends and passed off as "women-made" pornography. Even if the women voluntarily made a pornography video, it doesn't mean she wasn't exploited. Just as a person who takes a low paying job voluntarily takes it.
However, I think it's overall not a big issue. Although most women probably wouldn't voluntarily choose to show themselves in pornographic films, it's partially because society stigmatizes sexuality. If it didn't, know one would care. It would be like if someone had a picture of you from playing mini golf. Who cares?
I think the main problem I have with pornography is it's an act. It portrays sexuality differently from how it actually is and "creates" a notion of what sex is good. This is why a lot of people want pornography that seems genuine. They want the women to like it. Unfortunately, acting is a very common talent. It's very likely a women who seems to "really love being tied up" is actually feeling quite degraded. This makes pornography rather hollow.
You know why most of us use pornography, I suspect, is our climate of efficiency. I can achieve a much slower and often better quality "session" with my imagination. Pornography just saves me a lot of time. We use images of women for our own needs and just toss them away when we're done.
Sadly, I think sexuality is often just mutual exploitation. I was in a bar as a child where women wore bikinis and served us. I felt awkward. The men were ridiculously vulgar and made my quite ashamed of my sex, to be honest. However, after reflecting on the experience, I thought. Is there only one victim here? The men are being exploited for money.
I think sexuality and sex are rather dirty, as they are supposed to be. I don't think it's realistic to start idealizing them. Rape is a terrible crime, but it happens in the wild. Sex exists to serve individual need. Few spouses continue having sex with the person they "love" if sex doesn't interest them. If sex were truly about respecting a person and loving them, spouses would satisfy one another even when they weren't interested. Instead, it's just waiting until their biological clocks match up and exploiting one another.
because it is an issue for leftists in relation to the sex industry and debt slavery- many women entering into the sex industry from the developing world [sex workers also work in the porn industry]maybe trafficked or enter into contracts whereby they are given money by the bosses to travel to the west to enter into the sex industry and then have to pay the debt back at a massively inflated repayment eg equivalent of 7k spent to travel and set up in the west then have to repay 60k which means the bosses get a 24 hour worker with a debt to repay which is impossible to repay. This is the height of exploitation. Many south east asian women come to the west this way.. and they will also have to work on websites and in porn films with no choices as the bosses will have details of their families at home.
This also happens to women in their home countries- the "choice" to enter into the porn industry isnt often a choice as such for the reasons i have posted -
this is not a morality issue its an exploitation issue
I think it's safe to say that no one here thinks porn is a priori "bad." But we do need to seriously consider the current social relations--and sexism--in which the porn industry develops.
i think some of the gay men on here may disagree with you -
there is no way women need to "sit alone and stay healthy" women can go out looking also and they do...and by your analysis it would be extra important for the men you refer to to "stay healthy" safe sex is for men and women whatever their sexual orientation..
I think it degrades women. It's dishonest sex, it trades real life passion and sexual equality for objectifying a woman for her sex organs.
A woman is more than just an object--and pornography is making a woman into an object. It denies her humanity, her personality, her assent to your sexual approach. She isn't you equal--she is your sexual slave. She agreed to someone taking a picture and you have her as many times as you want--there's something vastly immoral about that.
Not in this man's Communism.
I'm strongly of the opinion that when the revolution comes, capitalists should be given the opinion of having sex on camera, or death by hanging.
Of course, only a few people want to see fat old white men have sex, but, whatever. We can start with Bud, who I quote below (maybe we can include crazy Christians, manky Muslims etc., not to mention trolls).
What about the case of two gay men having sex on camera (controlled by a gay man) directed by gay men? How the fuck does that degrade women at all?
You are an ignorant foolish man. And, I suspect, a troll that should be banned.
Have you heard of Emma? If I can't see two (or more) consenting adults engaging in sexual activity for a camera, then I don't want your revolution. (I could also go on about freedom, but I won't, you probably wouldn't understand it.)
