How Much Capitalism Will You Tolerate

[leninwasarightwingnutcase]

How could you stop it? If I want to "trade" some things I make with someone else who has other things that I may want--how can you tell us we can't?

And of course if my little trading works out--maybe I'll make and trade a number of items--and then maybe I'll trade items from other people that make things and don't want to be bothered with the trading part (I will of course do it for a slight fee--if there's no money then the maker will "give" me one of his made things as "thanks" for me doing the trading for him.)

And on and on and on till I become "Bud-Mart."

Are you actually going to STOP me from doing whateverthehell I want?

I suggest you look up Karl Poppers concept of free institutions. Its an excessively formal presentation of ideas that pretty much everyone here takes as common sense. I.e. that a free society is one with institutions which prevent the emergence of things which endanger freedom. I assume you wouldn't support people being allowed to freely make and trade, say, nuclear weapons, because this would seriously endanger a free society. Concentrations of economic power do the same, so free institutions must be designed to prevent them from emerging.

Theres a detailed response to what you are saying here:

www infoshop.org/faq/secI4.html#seci412

[Bud Struggle]

I suggest you look up Karl Poppers concept of free institutions. Its an excessively formal presentation of ideas that pretty much everyone here takes as common sense. I.e. that a free society is one with institutions which prevent the emergence of things which endanger freedom. I assume you wouldn't support people being allowed to freely make and trade, say, nuclear weapons, because this would seriously endanger a free society. Concentrations of economic power do the same, so free institutions must be designed to prevent them from emerging.

I can't quite understand how me helping my friends to promote their products could ever be consider something that would endanger society. It's quite possible I could present my case in such a way so that my local "soviet" will see that I am truly "helping people" with my business. I fully expect to recieve a commedation as a "Hero of Anarchy" for my efforts from my local council--especially if it makes my council more successful than neighboring councils.

Theres a detailed response to what you are saying here:

It seem I have to pay $9.95 to get that little piece of "common sense."

[leninwasarightwingnutcase]

I can't quite understand how me helping my friends to promote their products could ever be consider something that would endanger society.

So you're not talking about private ownership of significant means of production/distribution, wage labour etc? If not, most people here would see what you're talking about as all fine & dandy - just expect a lot more competition than now.

It seem I have to pay $9.95 to get that little piece of "common sense."

Eh? I'm pretty sure the infoshop AFAQ is free. If not, it can also be found here (for free):

www geocities.com/capitolHill/1931/secI4.html#seci412

[Bud Struggle]

So you're not talking about private ownership of significant means of production/distribution, wage labour etc? If not, most people here would see what you're talking about as all fine & dandy - just expect a lot more competition than now.

That's an excellent point. I don't know if I am talking about private or public ownership or maybe something in between. I guess there might be an opportunity for new types of ownership of ideas and things under Anarchy. Somehow I'd like to promote interesting and helpful ideas and inventions. On the other hand it might be best if I and people like me had a bit of an "incentive" and I guess that might be a slight problem.

I for one don't think the whole of any future Anarchist or Communist system is already thought out and finalized. There will be a lot of creative thought that will go into the system by those that will be living it.

And that's a great site you gave me. I need to go through all of it. Thanks.

[leninwasarightwingnutcase]

That's an excellent point. I don't know if I am talking about private or public ownership or maybe something in between. I guess there might be an opportunity for new types of ownership of ideas and things under Anarchy. Somehow I'd like to promote interesting and helpful ideas and inventions. On the other hand it might be best if I and people like me had a bit of an "incentive" and I guess that might be a slight problem.

Private ownership of MOP and wage labour aren't necessary to incentives. For example, incentives could come in the form of greater access to consumer goods, capital goods not easily available to all remaining public.

I for one don't think the whole of any future Anarchist or Communist system is already thought out and finalized. There will be a lot of creative thought that will go into the system by those that will be living it.

The spanish anarchists thought exactly the same. If you're interested, this is IMO the best english language book on how they organsied their economy (a collection of primary sources):
www amazon.com/Anarchist-Collectives-Self-Management-Revolution-1936-1939/dp/0914156020
You'll be suprised.

[Bud Struggle]

Private ownership of MOP and wage labour aren't necessary to incentives. For example, incentives could come in the form of greater access to consumer goods, capital goods not easily available to all remaining public.

Agreed. Hard to argue that. It also starts to answer the age old question about Communism: "why should I work at all?"

The spanish anarchists thought exactly the same. If you're interested, this is IMO the best english language book on how they organsied their economy (a collection of primary sources):
www amazon.com/Anarchist-Collectives-Self-Management-Revolution-1936-1939/dp/0914156020
You'll be suprised.

Thanks, I'll look into it. If we could make Anarchism work I wouldn't be oppposed to it--it's when Communism turns into the resurrecting of the ghosts Stalin and Hohxa and Trotsky and all those guys that I beging to roll my eyes.

[Ovi]

Nice speech.

But seriously--how can YOU say what people will do and what they will want. If people choose to band together and form a business because they see and advantage in working together, what business is that of yours? And if one person has more ideas and becomes their "leader" again what business is that of yours?

You seem to be so full of "no one will do THIS after the Revolution!" And "no one will do THAT after the Revolution!" I think we should just let people alone and let things play out as they will. Leave poeple alone to do what they want--that's Anarchy.

I'm willing to take my chances on the people and I think a Revolution might even to be to my advantage.

Form a business in a moneyless society? Now why would you want to do that? Not to mention the lack of private land and private means of production. There are many greedy selfish bastards, but the only way they'll be back in power is with violence. That's why a decentralized and organized army will be crucial.

[Bud Struggle]

That's why a decentralized and organized army will be crucial.

I agree. As long as it's my army.

General Bud

[danyboy27]

Form a business in a moneyless society? Now why would you want to do that? Not to mention the lack of private land and private means of production. There are many greedy selfish bastards, but the only way they'll be back in power is with violence. That's why a decentralized and organized army will be crucial.

you would be surprised of the talents of ingeniuity a man can deploy.

[Robert]

Form a business in a moneyless society?

Dude, don't you get it? Eliminating money accomplishes nothing. If Bud has a nice pair of boots that only he knows how to make, and which I happen to covet because my feet are cold or I have a leather fetish, and if he asks me for a bag of pinto beans, a watch, or a case of soap or beer in exchange, you can't stop us from making that swap. You won't even know about it.

To the extent he can make more profitable trades down the line by dividing up those beans, the soap and beer and offering them to you in exchange for your baseball cards, carrot seeds, eggs, tennis rackets, or diamonds, he correctly guessing that people will be offering bigger sacks of beans or more and more eggs in exchange for his boots as they become more and more fashionable, you can't stop that without calling in the cops. (Though as I understand it there won't be any cops either.)

Now here comes 16 year old Johnny and, being a sharp kid who wants a fine guitar but know he has to accumulate some beans to give to the luthier who charges in beans, he approaches Bud and says "will you teach me how to make boots so I can get some beans? I need beans." The luthier gets the beans, trades them to Mike for a new band saw, and Mike needs a pair of boots .... Isn't this fun?

Now ... don't forget that cops, if you can find one in a stateless society who is interested in breaking up this "criminal enterprise," like boots, too. Do you see the implications of that? The boots, or perhaps the diamonds or carrots seeds he ends up accumulating may become the medium of exchange. You and your neighbor may start your own trades, using any of those commodities as the medium (Don't laugh. Who would have thought people would kill each other to get a few dirty pieces of paper with a picture of George Washington in it?) I assure you that Bud and I will be keeping that iron law of primordial economics uppermost in mind while you're busy arguing with each other about Ludwig Von Misetrap and how stupid Ayn Rand is.

We'll cheer you on lustily, of course. Because Ayn must be stopped at all cost!

[Dust Bunnies]

After the revolution I'd try to keep as little Capitalism as possible, if it is possible to outlaw it completely immediately then that is fine, if I need a little bit, it is a necessary move needed to stabilize the future fruits of the revolution. After the revolution, in a transitional phase called Socialism, I won't have a "currencyless" society, rather the currency would have a totally different role. In my Socialism your work is counted in hours, you work 5 hours you get 5 hours credit, you cannot invest, only spend it, and once you spend it, it disappears, the seller cannot use it.

[Robert]

In my Socialism your work is counted in hours, you work 5 hours you get 5 hours credit, you cannot invest, only spend it

I want to work 6 hours for a guy in Albany who will give me some fine champagne or a Picasso in exchange. What are you going to do about it?

[Plagueround]

I must say it's interesting that the resident naysayers and some of our socialist posters think we're rallying to put an end to mundane private exchanges and trading between individuals.

[Robert]

the resident naysayers

Who dat?

Plague, where do you draw the line between the mundane and the consequential? Oil and railroads are probably a pretty big deal, I agree.

How about: Salt? Beans? Sugar? Pork bellies? Belts? Shoes? Firearms? Ball Bearings? Picassos? Ammo? Technology? Antiques?

Surely we agree that you'll need a state to draw those lines, yes?

Come on, throw me a bone here. We're co-owners of everything anyway.

[Ovi]

Dude, don't you get it? Eliminating money accomplishes nothing. If Bud has a nice pair of boots that only he knows how to make, and which I happen to covet because my feet are cold or I have a leather fetish, and if he asks me for a bag of pinto beans, a watch, or a case of soap or beer in exchange, you can't stop us from making that swap. You won't even know about it.

You don't get it. Moneyless society doesn't mean you'll have to barter everything, it means everything is freely available. If Bud has a nice pair of boots nobody gives a shit about how shiny or colorfull they are, we already have great boots and we don't give a shit about fashion. If he asks someone a bag of pinto beans nobody's gonna give it to him because people are used to freely use everything the community gives. Bud is going to be label a capitalist exploiter and be despised. End of story.
Edit: foolish me to respond to a troll.

[Robert]

it means everything is freely available.

Bud, get cracking on my free boots, will you?

[Bud Struggle]

You don't get it. Moneyless society doesn't mean you'll have to barter everything, it means everything is freely available. If Bud has a nice pair of boots nobody gives a shit about how shiny or colorfull they are, we already have great boots and we don't give a shit about fashion. If he asks someone a bag of pinto beans nobody's gonna give it to him because people are used to freely use everything the community gives. Bud is going to be label a capitalist exploiter and be despised. End of story.
Edit: foolish me to respond to a troll.

What makes you think there won't be shortages of things? The last time Communism was tried in Romania there certainly were huge shortages. If there are shortages--even in the slightest--there is going to be a demand and once there is a demand, I (or others like me) will be there to fufill it. That's why the Black Market is such a hit in Cuba and was quite fashionable in all of those formerly Socialist countries of the world. As far as being despised, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and darn it, people like me.

And further, Robert's not a troll--rather he's one of the guys around here that keep the Communists on the board rooted in some manner of reality and trims their wings a bit when they take off into flights of utopian fantasy.

Bud, get cracking on my free boots, will you?

No problem! I personally will be collecting diamonds and all sorts of (formerly) precious jems. Maybe even some of those nasty old gold bars that people will be leaving in the street.

I know none of that stuff will be worth anything--call me old fashioned but I'm just sentimental about those kinds of things. (Sigh.)

[Ovi]

What makes you think there won't be shortages of things? If there are shortages--even in the slightest--there is going to be a demand and once there is a demand, I (or others like me) will be there to fufill it. That's why the Black Market is such a hit in Cuba and was quite fashionable in all of those formerly Socialist countries of the world.

If there is need there is will to produce. Don't you think is easier to produce something than trade it to your advantage (considering the anti-capitalist nature of a communist society)?

The last time Communism was tried in Romania there certainly were huge shortages.

Communism in Romania? There was never communism in my country. (Nor in Cuba for that matter). If you have doubts on what communism is, then what are you arguing about?

[Robert]

This is a perennial issue on revleft: is the "state capitalism" (or so you call it) of the Soviet Bloc and China, Vietnam, Cuba, and Cambodia as close as you are ever going to get to what you call "communism," or isn't it?

You evidently say no. I say yes, not only because communist experiments have so invariably devolved into totalitarianism (how can this not bother you in the slightest?), with presidents for life and only one political party allowed, etc., but also because it's inevitable: you have too many people in any group who are not going to cooperate with your (or, admittedly, mine) collectivist vision without coercion coming from somewhere.

But you also say you don't want a state. Those two goals cannot be reconciled in light of what I know of human nature and experience. I wish many of life's realities were not what they are, but ... they are.

[Bud Struggle]

Communism in Romania? There was never communism in my country. (Nor in Cuba for that matter). If you have doubts on what communism is, then what are you arguing about?

I have no doubts about what Communism is. No matter how well intended the Revolutionaries or no matter how good the Marxist or Anarchist theory when put into practice in real life Communism ALWAYS ends up looking like Romania in 1975.