Please Explain This

[Dust Bunnies]

[QUOTE=Richard Nixon;1489061]

At any rate you must admit he was a sadistic fuck and an evil man.

Was he the sharpest tool in the shed? No. But did he try his best and did a good job? Yes. I'd take Stalin any day over George W. Bush. Stalin took a shit hole of farms and made it into an industrial power in a decade or so that took on countries that had decades to work on their industries.

On the other hand, Capitalist countries such as the United States are not so clean:

List of American Imperialism:
Overthrow attempts of Leaders, both democratic and not:
1893 – Hawaii (Liliuokalani; monarchist): success (OF)
1912 – China (Piyu; monarchist): success (OF)
1918 – Panama (Arias; center-right): success (SE)
1919 – Hungary (Kun; communist): success (CO)
1920 – USSR (Lenin; communist): failure (OF)
1924 – Honduras (Carias; nationalist): success (SE)
1945 – Japan (Higashikuni; rightist): success (OF)
1946 – Thailand (Pridi; conservative): success (CO)
1946 – Argentina (Peron; military/centrist): failure (SE)
1947 – France (*; communist): success (SE)
1947 – Philippines (*; center-left): success (SE)
1947 – Romania (Gheorghiu-Dej; stalinist): failure (CO)
1948 – Italy (*, communist): success (SE)
1948 – Colombia (Gaitan; populist/leftist): success (SE)
1948 – Peru (Bustamante; left/centrist): success (CO)
1949 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): success (CO)
1949 – China (Mao; communist): failure (CO)
1950 – Albania (Hoxha; communist): failure (CO)
1951 – Bolivia (Paz; center/neutralist): success (CO)
1951 – DPRK (Kim; stalinist): failure (OF)
1951 – Poland (Cyrankiewicz; stalinist): failure (CO)
1951 – Thailand (Phibun; conservative): success (CO)
1952 – Egypt (Farouk; monarchist): success (CO)
1952 – Cuba (Prio; reform/populist): success (CO)
1952 – Lebanon (*; left/populist): success: (SE)
1953 – British Guyana (*; left/populist): success (CO)
1953 – Iran (Mossadegh; liberal nationalist): success (CO)
1953 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
1953 – Philippines (*; center-left): success (SE)
1954 – Guatemala (Arbenz; liberal nationalist): success (OF)
1955 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
1955 – India (Nehru; neutralist/socialist): failure (CO)
1955 – Argentina (Peron; military/centrist): success (CO)
1955 – China (Zhou; communist): failure (CO)
1955 – Vietnam (Ho; communist): success (SE)
1956 – Hungary (Hegedus; communist): success (CO)
1957 – Egypt (Nasser; military/nationalist): failure (CO)
1957 – Haiti (Sylvain; left/populist): success (CO)
1957 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): failure (CO)
1958 – Japan (*; left-center): success (SE)
1958 – Chile (*; leftists): success (SE)
1958 – Iraq (Feisal; monarchist): success (CO)
1958 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
1958 – Sudan (Sovereignty Council; nationalist): success (CO)
1958 – Lebanon (*; leftist): success (SE)
1958 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): failure (CO)
1958 – Indonesia (Sukarno; militarist/neutralist): failure (SE)
1959 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
1959 – Nepal (*; left-centrist): success (SE)
1959 – Cambodia (Sihanouk; moderate/neutralist): failure (CO)
1960 – Ecuador (Ponce; left/populist): success (CO)
1960 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
1960 – Iraq (Qassem; rightist /militarist): failure (CO)
1960 – S. Korea (Syngman; rightist): success (CO)
1960 – Turkey (Menderes; liberal): success (CO)
Air Attacks:
Japan (1943-45): conventional; incendiary; nuclear
China (1945-49): conventional; biological
Korea (1950-53): conventional; biological; chemical; incendiary
China (1951-52): conventional; biological; chemical
Guatemala (1954): conventional
Indonesia (1958): conventional
Cuba (1959-61): conventional; (biochemical attacks in other years)
Guatemala (1960): conventional
Murders America and it's government are responsible for:
Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M
West Africans (1776-1865): 4M
Philippines (1898-1904): 600K
Germany (1945): 200K
Japan (1945): 900K
China (1945-60): 200K
Greece (1947-49): 100K
Korea (1951-53): 2M
List of Dictators installed by US:
Batista, Fulgencio (Cuba: 1940-44/1952-1959)
Ben-Gurion, David (Israel: 1948-1953)
Betancourt Bello, Rumulo (Venezuela: 1959-)
Diem, Ngo Dinh (S. Vietnam: 1955-)
Feisal, King (Iraq: 1939-1958)
Franco, Francisco (Spain: 1937-)
Hussein, King (Jordan: 1952-)
Martinez, Maximiliano (El Salvador: 1931-1944)
Mussolini, Benito (Italy: 1922-1939)
Odria, Manuel (Peru: 1948-1956)
Aid to groups opposing popular movements:
1776-1865 – United States (numerous slave rebellions): success (OF)
1782-1787 – United States (Wyoming Valley): success (OF)
1786-1787 – United States (Shay’s Rebellion): success (OF)
1790-1795 – United States (Ohio Valley tribes): success (OF)
1794-1794 – United States (Whiskey Rebellion): success (OF)
1798-1800 – United States (Alien & Sedition trials): success (CO)
1799-1799 – United States (Fries’ Rebellion): success (OF)
1805-1806 – United States (Boston union “conspiracy”): success (CO)
1806-1807 – United States (Burr’s Insurrection): success (OF)
1810-1821 – Spanish Florida (Africans, Natives, etc): success (OF)
1811-1811 – United States (Tecumseh’s Confederacy): success (OF)
1813-1814 – United States (Creeks): success (OF)
1822-1822 – United States (Vesey’s Rebellion): success (CO)
1823-1824 – United States (Arikara): success (OF)
1826-1827 – United States (Philadelphia union “conspiracy”): success (CO)
1827-1827 – United States (Fever River & Winnebago): success (OF)
1831-1831 – United States (Turner’s rebellion): success (OF)
1831-1831 – United States (Sac & Fox): success (OF)
1832-1832 – United States (Black Hawks): success (OF)
1833-1834 – Argentina (rebellion): success (OF)
1835-1835 – United States (Murrel’s Uprising): success (CO)
1835-1836 – Peru (rebellion): success (OF)
1835-1842 – United States (Seminoles): success (OF)
1836-1837 – United States (Sabine, Osage): success (OF)
1836-1844 – Mexico (anti-Texans, Natives, etc): success (OF)
1837-1838 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1838-1839 – United States (Mormons): success (OF)
1842-1842 – United States (Dorr’s Rebellion): success (OF)
1847-1855 – United States (Cayuse): success (OF)
1850-1851 – United States (Mariposa tribes): success (OF)
1851-1859 – United States (Washington tribes): success (OF)
1852-1853 – Argentina (rebellion in Buenos Aires): success (OF
1854-1856 – China (rebellion): success (OF)
1855-1856 – United States (Sioux): success (OF)
1855-1858 – United States (Seminoles): success (OF)
1855-1858 – Nicaragua (Walker’s invasion): success (OF)
1855-1860 – United States (“Bleeding Kansas”): success (OF)
1857-1857 – United States (Cheyenne): success (OF)
1857-1858 – United States (Mormons): success (OF)
1858-1858 – Uruguay (rebellion in Montevideo): success (OF)
1858-1859 – United States (Comanche): success (OF)
1859-1859 – United States (Brownists at Harper’s Ferry): success (OF)
1860-1860 – Angola (rebellion in Kissembo): success (OF)
1860-1861 – Colombia (rebellion): success (OF)
1861-1865 – United States (confederate rebellion): success (OF)
1861-1865 – United States (Navajo): success (OF)
1861-1886 – United States (Apache): success (OF)
1862-1864 – United States (Sioux): success (OF)
1863-1863 – United States (draft riots): success (OF)
1863-1864 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1864-1864 – United States (Sand Hill Massacre): success (OF)
1865-1865 – Panama (rebellion): success (OF)
1865-1867 – United States (Sioux): success (OF)
1867-1867 – Formosa (rebellion): success (OF)
1867-1875 – United States (Comanche): success (OF)
1868-1868 – Japan (rebellion): success (OF)]
1868-1868 – United States (Washita/South Plains tribes): success (OF)
1868-1868 – Uruguay (rebellion): success (OF)
1871-1871 – Korea (rebellion): success (OF)
1872-1873 – United States (Modocs): success (OF)
1874-1875 – United States (Red River War): success (OF)
1874-1874 – United States (Kiowa): success (OF)
1876-1877 – United States (Sioux/Cheyenne): success (OF)
1877-1877 – United States (St Louis general strike, others): success (OF)
1877-1877 – United States (Nez Perce): success (OF)
1878-1878 – United States (Idaho tribes): success (OF)
1878-1879 – United States (Cheyenne): success (OF)
1879-1880 – United States (Ute): success (OF)
1885-1885 – United States (New York textile strikes): failure (OF)
1886-1886 – United States (massive strikes, Haymarket): success (OF)
1888-1888 – Korea (rebellion): success (OF)
1888-1893 – Hawaii (rebellion contra Dole): success (OF)
1888-1889 – Samoa (rebellion): success (OF)
1890-1891 – United States (Pine Ridge, Wounded Knee): success (OF)
1891-1891 – Haiti (Navassa uprising): success (OF)
1891-1892 – Chile (rebellion): success (OF)
1892-1892 – United States (Idaho miners): success (OF)
1893-1894 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1894-1894 – Nicaragua (Bluefields unrest): success (OF)
1894-1894 – United States (Chicago rail/Pullman strikes): success (OF)
1894-1895 – Brazil (rebellion): success (OF)
1894-1896 – Korea (post Sino-Japanese war rebellion): success (OF)
1896-1899 – Nicaragua (rebellions): success (OF)
1898-1900 – United States (Chippewa at Leech Lake): success (OF)
1898-1902 – Philippines (nationalist resistance): success (OF)
1899-1899 – Samoa (Mataafa): success (OF)
1899-1901 – United States (Idaho miners): success (OF)
1900-1941 – China (Boxers, communists, etc): success (OF)
1901-1901 – United States (Creek uprising): success (OF)
1901-1901 – United States (Steel strikes): failure (OF)
1901-1902 – Colombia (rebellions): success (OF)
1901-1913 – Philippines (Moslem Moro rebellion): success (OF)
1903-1903 – Honduras (rebellion): success (OF)
1903-1904 – Dominican Republic (rebellion): success (OF)
1904-1909 – United States (Kentucky tobacco farmers): success (OF)
1906-1909 – Cuba (rebellion): success (OF)
1907-1911 – Honduras (leftists, Bonilla): success (OF)
1909-1911 – United States (NY/Triangle textile strikes): failure (OF)
1911-1912 – China (rebellions): success (OF)
1912-1925 – Nicaragua (leftists): success (OF)
1913-1919 – Mexico (various rebellions, Villa): failure (OF)
1914-1914 – United States (Ludlow Massacre): success (OF)
1914-1924 – Dominican Republic (various factions): success (OF)
1915-1934 – Haiti (Sam, etc): success (OF)
1916-1917 – United States (Arizona miners strike): success (OF)
1917-1918 – United States (IWW): success (CO)
1917-1919 – United States (Espionage Act trials): success (CO)
1917-1922 – Cuba (rebellions): success (OF)
1918-1920 – Panama (strikes, election protests, etc): success (OF)
1919-1919 – Honduras (rebellion): success (OF)
1919-1920 – United States (Palmer Raids): success (CO)
1919-1920 – Costa Rica (Tinoco, etc): success (CO)
1919-1920 – United States (Great Steel Strike, others): success (OF)
1920-1921 – United States (West Virginian miners): success (OF)
1920-1928 – United States (prison rebellions): success (OF)
1920-1920 – Guatemala (Unionists): success (OF)
1922-1922 – Turkey (Nationalists): success (OF)
1922-1923 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1924-1925 – Honduras (rebellions): success (OF)
1925-1925 – Panama (general strike): success (OF)
1926-1933 – Nicaragua (Sandino, others): success (OF)
1931-1932 – El Salvador (Marti): success (OF)
1932-1932 – United States (DC Bonus Strikers): success (OF)
1933-1933 – Cuba (rebellion): success (OF)
1935-1935 – Philippines (Sakdal Uprising): success (OF)
1938-1957 – United States (leftists: HUAC, McCarthyism): success (CO)
1943-1946 – United States (unprecedented strikes): success (OF)
1944-1951 – Greece (EAM/ELAS/KKE): success (CO)
1945-1949 – China (maoism): failure (OF)
1945-1954 – Vietnam (Viet Minh): failure (CO)
1946-1947 – S. Korea (mass resistance to US military rule): success (OF)
1947-1950 – Turkey (TKP): success (CO)
1948-1948 – S. Korea (democratic resistance): success (OF)
1948-1954 – Philippines (Huks): success (CO)
1950-1951 – United States (Puerto Rican independence): success (OF)
1950-1953 – United States (many prison rebellions): success (OF)
1952-1975 – Japan (general anti-US protests): success (OF)
1952-1957 – Japan (protestors in Okinawa): success (OF)
1953-1963 – Syria (ASRP/Baathists): failure (CO)
1954-1962 – Algeria (FLN): failure (CO)
1956-1971 – United States (Cointelpro-CPUSA): success (CO)
1956-1975 – South Vietnam (NLF): failure (OF)
1957-1959 – Lebanon (leftists): success (OF)
1957-1958 – Jordan (leftists/anti-monarchists): success (OF)
1959-1960 – Haiti (rebels contra Duvalier): success (OF)
US proxy wars:
1950s: Poland; Ukraine; Russia, China; Thailand; Burma
US Foreign policy:
Monroe Doctrine – western hemisphere = US property; non-whites = untermenschen
McKinley Doctrine – Open Door Policy i.e., China, Pacific = potentially, possibly, most likely US property; non-whites = untermenschen
Roosevelt Corollary – western hemisphere = US property, and we mean it this time! non-whites = untermenschen
Taft Doctrine – Dollar Diplomacy i.e., western hemisphere = US property, and we mean economically, politically, and all other ways; the Middle East = potentially, possibly, most likely, US property
Wilson Doctrine – 14 Points internationalism (i.e., great powers should respect each other; to hell with the rest); western hemisphere = US property, and we really mean it this time! non-whites = untermenschen
Roosevelt Doctrine – “Good Neighbor Policy!” i.e., western hemisphere = US property, and we really really really fucking mean it.
Truman Doctrine – aid to fascists in Greece, Turkey, the Philippines, Korea, Vietnam, western Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa, etc. i.e., what Kennan called “Containment.”
Eisenhower Doctrine – the Middle East = US property; non-whites = untermenschen; massive retaliation

[Kwisatz Haderach]

At any rate you must admit he was a sadistic fuck and an evil man.

Oh yes, I don't think there can be any question about that. Stalin also did many good things - industrializing the USSR, achieving spectacular economic growth, greatly improving education and health care, winning WW2 - but I think it's fair to say he did these things solely for his personal glory. And he was a sadistic fuck, not to mention insanely paranoid.

I support the memory of the USSR. I think its positive side greatly outweighed its negative side, even under Stalin. But I don't think Stalin personally deserves to take credit for this.

Also, just because Stalin was evil, that doesn't mean it's ok to say anything you want about him. He did not eat babies, and by any reasonable standards he did not kill more people than Hitler. I'm saying this for the sake of history, not for Stalin's sake. If someone claimed that Hitler killed more people than malaria, I would correct them too. (malaria killed far more people than Hitler, and in fact it probably killed more people than any other single cause, ever)

And finally, it's good to remember that any leader of any kind who ever engaged in warfare is responsible for at least a handful of innocent deaths. As Dust Bunnies pointed out above, the US government can be blamed for a long list of atrocities and murders. While it is true that no single US leader killed more people than Stalin, the number of innocent people killed by the US over its entire history is likely to be higher than the number of innocent people killed by the USSR over its entire history (at least as long as you use the same standards of what counts as "killing" in both cases - so if you count unintentional famine deaths in the USSR, you must also count all deaths by government inaction in the US).

If you take cappiej's view and say that numbers don't matter and any killing of innocents is enough to make you evil, then you'd be hard pressed to find any non-evil society or powerful person in human history.

[Richard Nixon]

Oh yes, I don't think there can be any question about that. Stalin also did many good things - industrializing the USSR, achieving spectacular economic growth, greatly improving education and health care, winning WW2 - but I think it's fair to say he did these things solely for his personal glory. And he was a sadistic fuck, not to mention insanely paranoid.

I support the memory of the USSR. I think its positive side greatly outweighed its negative side, even under Stalin. But I don't think Stalin personally deserves to take credit for this.

Also, just because Stalin was evil, that doesn't mean it's ok to say anything you want about him. He did not eat babies, and by any reasonable standards he did not kill more people than Hitler. I'm saying this for the sake of history, not for Stalin's sake. If someone claimed that Hitler killed more people than malaria, I would correct them too. (malaria killed far more people than Hitler, and in fact it probably killed more people than any other single cause, ever)

And finally, it's good to remember that any leader of any kind who ever engaged in warfare is responsible for at least a handful of innocent deaths. As Dust Bunnies pointed out above, the US government can be blamed for a long list of atrocities and murders. While it is true that no single US leader killed more people than Stalin, the number of innocent people killed by the US over its entire history is likely to be higher than the number of innocent people killed by the USSR over its entire history (at least as long as you use the same standards of what counts as "killing" in both cases - so if you count unintentional famine deaths in the USSR, you must also count all deaths by government inaction in the US).

The Soviet Union has existed from 1917 to 1991 but the United States has existed since 1776 so obviously more people would be dead due to it's irresponsiblitly and so on.

[Richard Nixon]

[QUOTE=Dust Bunnies;1489083]

Was he the sharpest tool in the shed? No. But did he try his best and did a good job? Yes. I'd take Stalin any day over George W. Bush. Stalin took a shit hole of farms and made it into an industrial power in a decade or so that took on countries that had decades to work on their industries.

On the other hand, Capitalist countries such as the United States are not so clean:

List of American Imperialism:
Overthrow attempts of Leaders, both democratic and not:
1893 – Hawaii (Liliuokalani; monarchist): success (OF)
1912 – China (Piyu; monarchist): success (OF)
1918 – Panama (Arias; center-right): success (SE)
1919 – Hungary (Kun; communist): success (CO)
1920 – USSR (Lenin; communist): failure (OF)
1924 – Honduras (Carias; nationalist): success (SE)
1945 – Japan (Higashikuni; rightist): success (OF)
1946 – Thailand (Pridi; conservative): success (CO)
1946 – Argentina (Peron; military/centrist): failure (SE)
1947 – France (*; communist): success (SE)
1947 – Philippines (*; center-left): success (SE)
1947 – Romania (Gheorghiu-Dej; stalinist): failure (CO)
1948 – Italy (*, communist): success (SE)
1948 – Colombia (Gaitan; populist/leftist): success (SE)
1948 – Peru (Bustamante; left/centrist): success (CO)
1949 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): success (CO)
1949 – China (Mao; communist): failure (CO)
1950 – Albania (Hoxha; communist): failure (CO)
1951 – Bolivia (Paz; center/neutralist): success (CO)
1951 – DPRK (Kim; stalinist): failure (OF)
1951 – Poland (Cyrankiewicz; stalinist): failure (CO)
1951 – Thailand (Phibun; conservative): success (CO)
1952 – Egypt (Farouk; monarchist): success (CO)
1952 – Cuba (Prio; reform/populist): success (CO)
1952 – Lebanon (*; left/populist): success: (SE)
1953 – British Guyana (*; left/populist): success (CO)
1953 – Iran (Mossadegh; liberal nationalist): success (CO)
1953 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
1953 – Philippines (*; center-left): success (SE)
1954 – Guatemala (Arbenz; liberal nationalist): success (OF)
1955 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
1955 – India (Nehru; neutralist/socialist): failure (CO)
1955 – Argentina (Peron; military/centrist): success (CO)
1955 – China (Zhou; communist): failure (CO)
1955 – Vietnam (Ho; communist): success (SE)
1956 – Hungary (Hegedus; communist): success (CO)
1957 – Egypt (Nasser; military/nationalist): failure (CO)
1957 – Haiti (Sylvain; left/populist): success (CO)
1957 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): failure (CO)
1958 – Japan (*; left-center): success (SE)
1958 – Chile (*; leftists): success (SE)
1958 – Iraq (Feisal; monarchist): success (CO)
1958 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
1958 – Sudan (Sovereignty Council; nationalist): success (CO)
1958 – Lebanon (*; leftist): success (SE)
1958 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): failure (CO)
1958 – Indonesia (Sukarno; militarist/neutralist): failure (SE)
1959 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
1959 – Nepal (*; left-centrist): success (SE)
1959 – Cambodia (Sihanouk; moderate/neutralist): failure (CO)
1960 – Ecuador (Ponce; left/populist): success (CO)
1960 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
1960 – Iraq (Qassem; rightist /militarist): failure (CO)
1960 – S. Korea (Syngman; rightist): success (CO)
1960 – Turkey (Menderes; liberal): success (CO)
Air Attacks:
Japan (1943-45): conventional; incendiary; nuclear
China (1945-49): conventional; biological
Korea (1950-53): conventional; biological; chemical; incendiary
China (1951-52): conventional; biological; chemical
Guatemala (1954): conventional
Indonesia (1958): conventional
Cuba (1959-61): conventional; (biochemical attacks in other years)
Guatemala (1960): conventional
Murders America and it's government are responsible for:
Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M
West Africans (1776-1865): 4M
Philippines (1898-1904): 600K
Germany (1945): 200K
Japan (1945): 900K
China (1945-60): 200K
Greece (1947-49): 100K
Korea (1951-53): 2M
List of Dictators installed by US:
Batista, Fulgencio (Cuba: 1940-44/1952-1959)
Ben-Gurion, David (Israel: 1948-1953)
Betancourt Bello, Rumulo (Venezuela: 1959-)
Diem, Ngo Dinh (S. Vietnam: 1955-)
Feisal, King (Iraq: 1939-1958)
Franco, Francisco (Spain: 1937-)
Hussein, King (Jordan: 1952-)
Martinez, Maximiliano (El Salvador: 1931-1944)
Mussolini, Benito (Italy: 1922-1939)
Odria, Manuel (Peru: 1948-1956)
Aid to groups opposing popular movements:
1776-1865 – United States (numerous slave rebellions): success (OF)
1782-1787 – United States (Wyoming Valley): success (OF)
1786-1787 – United States (Shay’s Rebellion): success (OF)
1790-1795 – United States (Ohio Valley tribes): success (OF)
1794-1794 – United States (Whiskey Rebellion): success (OF)
1798-1800 – United States (Alien & Sedition trials): success (CO)
1799-1799 – United States (Fries’ Rebellion): success (OF)
1805-1806 – United States (Boston union “conspiracy”): success (CO)
1806-1807 – United States (Burr’s Insurrection): success (OF)
1810-1821 – Spanish Florida (Africans, Natives, etc): success (OF)
1811-1811 – United States (Tecumseh’s Confederacy): success (OF)
1813-1814 – United States (Creeks): success (OF)
1822-1822 – United States (Vesey’s Rebellion): success (CO)
1823-1824 – United States (Arikara): success (OF)
1826-1827 – United States (Philadelphia union “conspiracy”): success (CO)
1827-1827 – United States (Fever River & Winnebago): success (OF)
1831-1831 – United States (Turner’s rebellion): success (OF)
1831-1831 – United States (Sac & Fox): success (OF)
1832-1832 – United States (Black Hawks): success (OF)
1833-1834 – Argentina (rebellion): success (OF)
1835-1835 – United States (Murrel’s Uprising): success (CO)
1835-1836 – Peru (rebellion): success (OF)
1835-1842 – United States (Seminoles): success (OF)
1836-1837 – United States (Sabine, Osage): success (OF)
1836-1844 – Mexico (anti-Texans, Natives, etc): success (OF)
1837-1838 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1838-1839 – United States (Mormons): success (OF)
1842-1842 – United States (Dorr’s Rebellion): success (OF)
1847-1855 – United States (Cayuse): success (OF)
1850-1851 – United States (Mariposa tribes): success (OF)
1851-1859 – United States (Washington tribes): success (OF)
1852-1853 – Argentina (rebellion in Buenos Aires): success (OF
1854-1856 – China (rebellion): success (OF)
1855-1856 – United States (Sioux): success (OF)
1855-1858 – United States (Seminoles): success (OF)
1855-1858 – Nicaragua (Walker’s invasion): success (OF)
1855-1860 – United States (“Bleeding Kansas”): success (OF)
1857-1857 – United States (Cheyenne): success (OF)
1857-1858 – United States (Mormons): success (OF)
1858-1858 – Uruguay (rebellion in Montevideo): success (OF)
1858-1859 – United States (Comanche): success (OF)
1859-1859 – United States (Brownists at Harper’s Ferry): success (OF)
1860-1860 – Angola (rebellion in Kissembo): success (OF)
1860-1861 – Colombia (rebellion): success (OF)
1861-1865 – United States (confederate rebellion): success (OF)
1861-1865 – United States (Navajo): success (OF)
1861-1886 – United States (Apache): success (OF)
1862-1864 – United States (Sioux): success (OF)
1863-1863 – United States (draft riots): success (OF)
1863-1864 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1864-1864 – United States (Sand Hill Massacre): success (OF)
1865-1865 – Panama (rebellion): success (OF)
1865-1867 – United States (Sioux): success (OF)
1867-1867 – Formosa (rebellion): success (OF)
1867-1875 – United States (Comanche): success (OF)
1868-1868 – Japan (rebellion): success (OF)]
1868-1868 – United States (Washita/South Plains tribes): success (OF)
1868-1868 – Uruguay (rebellion): success (OF)
1871-1871 – Korea (rebellion): success (OF)
1872-1873 – United States (Modocs): success (OF)
1874-1875 – United States (Red River War): success (OF)
1874-1874 – United States (Kiowa): success (OF)
1876-1877 – United States (Sioux/Cheyenne): success (OF)
1877-1877 – United States (St Louis general strike, others): success (OF)
1877-1877 – United States (Nez Perce): success (OF)
1878-1878 – United States (Idaho tribes): success (OF)
1878-1879 – United States (Cheyenne): success (OF)
1879-1880 – United States (Ute): success (OF)
1885-1885 – United States (New York textile strikes): failure (OF)
1886-1886 – United States (massive strikes, Haymarket): success (OF)
1888-1888 – Korea (rebellion): success (OF)
1888-1893 – Hawaii (rebellion contra Dole): success (OF)
1888-1889 – Samoa (rebellion): success (OF)
1890-1891 – United States (Pine Ridge, Wounded Knee): success (OF)
1891-1891 – Haiti (Navassa uprising): success (OF)
1891-1892 – Chile (rebellion): success (OF)
1892-1892 – United States (Idaho miners): success (OF)
1893-1894 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1894-1894 – Nicaragua (Bluefields unrest): success (OF)
1894-1894 – United States (Chicago rail/Pullman strikes): success (OF)
1894-1895 – Brazil (rebellion): success (OF)
1894-1896 – Korea (post Sino-Japanese war rebellion): success (OF)
1896-1899 – Nicaragua (rebellions): success (OF)
1898-1900 – United States (Chippewa at Leech Lake): success (OF)
1898-1902 – Philippines (nationalist resistance): success (OF)
1899-1899 – Samoa (Mataafa): success (OF)
1899-1901 – United States (Idaho miners): success (OF)
1900-1941 – China (Boxers, communists, etc): success (OF)
1901-1901 – United States (Creek uprising): success (OF)
1901-1901 – United States (Steel strikes): failure (OF)
1901-1902 – Colombia (rebellions): success (OF)
1901-1913 – Philippines (Moslem Moro rebellion): success (OF)
1903-1903 – Honduras (rebellion): success (OF)
1903-1904 – Dominican Republic (rebellion): success (OF)
1904-1909 – United States (Kentucky tobacco farmers): success (OF)
1906-1909 – Cuba (rebellion): success (OF)
1907-1911 – Honduras (leftists, Bonilla): success (OF)
1909-1911 – United States (NY/Triangle textile strikes): failure (OF)
1911-1912 – China (rebellions): success (OF)
1912-1925 – Nicaragua (leftists): success (OF)
1913-1919 – Mexico (various rebellions, Villa): failure (OF)
1914-1914 – United States (Ludlow Massacre): success (OF)
1914-1924 – Dominican Republic (various factions): success (OF)
1915-1934 – Haiti (Sam, etc): success (OF)
1916-1917 – United States (Arizona miners strike): success (OF)
1917-1918 – United States (IWW): success (CO)
1917-1919 – United States (Espionage Act trials): success (CO)
1917-1922 – Cuba (rebellions): success (OF)
1918-1920 – Panama (strikes, election protests, etc): success (OF)
1919-1919 – Honduras (rebellion): success (OF)
1919-1920 – United States (Palmer Raids): success (CO)
1919-1920 – Costa Rica (Tinoco, etc): success (CO)
1919-1920 – United States (Great Steel Strike, others): success (OF)
1920-1921 – United States (West Virginian miners): success (OF)
1920-1928 – United States (prison rebellions): success (OF)
1920-1920 – Guatemala (Unionists): success (OF)
1922-1922 – Turkey (Nationalists): success (OF)
1922-1923 – United States (massive strikes): success (OF)
1924-1925 – Honduras (rebellions): success (OF)
1925-1925 – Panama (general strike): success (OF)
1926-1933 – Nicaragua (Sandino, others): success (OF)
1931-1932 – El Salvador (Marti): success (OF)
1932-1932 – United States (DC Bonus Strikers): success (OF)
1933-1933 – Cuba (rebellion): success (OF)
1935-1935 – Philippines (Sakdal Uprising): success (OF)
1938-1957 – United States (leftists: HUAC, McCarthyism): success (CO)
1943-1946 – United States (unprecedented strikes): success (OF)
1944-1951 – Greece (EAM/ELAS/KKE): success (CO)
1945-1949 – China (maoism): failure (OF)
1945-1954 – Vietnam (Viet Minh): failure (CO)
1946-1947 – S. Korea (mass resistance to US military rule): success (OF)
1947-1950 – Turkey (TKP): success (CO)
1948-1948 – S. Korea (democratic resistance): success (OF)
1948-1954 – Philippines (Huks): success (CO)
1950-1951 – United States (Puerto Rican independence): success (OF)
1950-1953 – United States (many prison rebellions): success (OF)
1952-1975 – Japan (general anti-US protests): success (OF)
1952-1957 – Japan (protestors in Okinawa): success (OF)
1953-1963 – Syria (ASRP/Baathists): failure (CO)
1954-1962 – Algeria (FLN): failure (CO)
1956-1971 – United States (Cointelpro-CPUSA): success (CO)
1956-1975 – South Vietnam (NLF): failure (OF)
1957-1959 – Lebanon (leftists): success (OF)
1957-1958 – Jordan (leftists/anti-monarchists): success (OF)
1959-1960 – Haiti (rebels contra Duvalier): success (OF)
US proxy wars:
1950s: Poland; Ukraine; Russia, China; Thailand; Burma
US Foreign policy:
Monroe Doctrine – western hemisphere = US property; non-whites = untermenschen
McKinley Doctrine – Open Door Policy i.e., China, Pacific = potentially, possibly, most likely US property; non-whites = untermenschen
Roosevelt Corollary – western hemisphere = US property, and we mean it this time! non-whites = untermenschen
Taft Doctrine – Dollar Diplomacy i.e., western hemisphere = US property, and we mean economically, politically, and all other ways; the Middle East = potentially, possibly, most likely, US property
Wilson Doctrine – 14 Points internationalism (i.e., great powers should respect each other; to hell with the rest); western hemisphere = US property, and we really mean it this time! non-whites = untermenschen
Roosevelt Doctrine – “Good Neighbor Policy!” i.e., western hemisphere = US property, and we really really really fucking mean it.
Truman Doctrine – aid to fascists in Greece, Turkey, the Philippines, Korea, Vietnam, western Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa, etc. i.e., what Kennan called “Containment.”
Eisenhower Doctrine – the Middle East = US property; non-whites = untermenschen; massive retaliation

Very hypocritical in my opinion. For instance when the US has attempted to overthrow dictators (ie such as in the Korean War) it's considered imperialism but when the US supports a dictator it's considered imperialism. Also David Ben Gurion is not a dictator in any meaningful sense while King Hussein is popular and a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalists. Finally we certainly did not support Mussolini or Franco-thousands of Americans fought against Franco in the International Brigades. Syangman was driven out by a popular rebellion not a US coup.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

You really shouldn't have quoted DB's entire post - it's huge.

But with regards to imperialism, I think his point is that any US intervention for the purpose of deciding another country's ruler counts as imperialism, regardless of what kind of ruler we're talking about. And yes, democracy is better than dictatorship in principle, but I can think of some dictators who were better than some elected leaders.

The Soviet Union has existed from 1917 to 1991 but the United States has existed since 1776 so obviously more people would be dead due to it's irresponsiblitly and so on.

Yes, I thought of that, which is why I said that the US probably killed more people than the USSR. It had a lot more time to do so. If we're talking about people killed per unit of time, then I don't know.

But, although numbers do matter, we both have to admit that no one chooses which country to support and which to oppose based on who killed less people. The reality is that we each like certain types of societies more than others. There is no such thing as a politically impartial judgment of history.

[Jack]

[QUOTE=Richard Nixon;1489107]

Very hypocritical in my opinion. For instance when the US has attempted to overthrow dictators (ie such as in the Korean War) it's considered imperialism but when the US supports a dictator it's considered imperialism. Also David Ben Gurion is not a dictator in any meaningful sense while King Hussein is popular and a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalists. Finally we certainly did not support Mussolini or Franco-thousands of Americans fought against Franco in the International Brigades. Syangman was driven out by a popular rebellion not a US coup.

Americans doing things =/= America doing something. Bringing up the International Brigades is a bad idea considering they were set up by the COMINTERN mostly. Those are all allegations agains the US government, not it's people. Obviously we're not going to blame Emma Goldman for repression against the IWW just because she was American.

[Brother No. 1]

For instance when the US has attempted to overthrow dictators (ie such as in the Korean War)

So an intervention in awar to save their "allies", aka ROK was a puppet to America, from the "Communist cancer" of the DPRK means to you wanting to overthrow a "dictator" and set up a Bougorsie "Democratic" goverment? The US wanted to kick out the DPRK to have their dominace in Korea a whole.

And I'm sure that massacuring civilains was also their plan.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/kor-n17.shtml

ROKA's massacuring police.

http://www.fas.org/news/skorea/1999/...006another.htm


Other massacures

http://www.iacenter.org/Koreafiles/ktc-park.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/07/wo...-reported.html

http://revcom.us/a/136/korea_massacres-en.html

http://www.korea-is-one.org/spip.php?article3108

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...2-06_D94TJ7800

it's considered imperialism but when the US supports a dictator it's considered imperialism.

The US is spreading its interests by using these dictators and trading with them, as they did with Hitler in the 30s, and will trade with any Capitlaist nation and do anything to keep domiance.

[Rosa Provokateur]

. If leftism all good

Here's your first mistake; Leftism is shit, it's not radical and it's counter-revolutionary.

The Left's fetish with organization is it's greatest stumbling block to ever doing anything good; it seeks to organize not only society but people, creating a new morality, building new work ethic. More and more constant bull shit that people dont need.

We need to break with the Left, maybe even break the Left. It's killing us and anarchists gotta fight it.

[Dust Bunnies]

Here's your first mistake; Leftism is shit, it's not radical and it's counter-revolutionary.

LOL WUT. Leftism isn't shit, it is radical, and it is revolutionary. We are trying to smash a system that is quite simply, shit.

Dictionary.com's definitions of revolutionaries seem to fit/help leftism: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolutionary

rev⋅o⋅lu⋅tion⋅ar⋅y

  /ˌrɛvəˈluʃəˌnɛri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rev-uh-loo-shuh-ner-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural -ar⋅ies. –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, characterized by, or of the nature of a revolution, or a sudden, complete, or marked change: a revolutionary junta. 2. radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles, etc.: a revolutionary discovery. 3. (initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the American Revolution or to the period contemporaneous with it in U.S. history: Revolutionary heroes; Revolutionary weapons. 4. revolving.
–noun 5. a revolutionist.

Origin:
1765–75; revolution + -ary

The Left's fetish with organization is it's greatest stumbling block to ever doing anything good; it seeks to organize not only society but people, creating a new morality, building new work ethic. More and more constant bull shit that people dont need.

So allowing all people in the world to eat a meal and have shelter is bull shit? Having a great work ethic is shit? If you have kids don't teach them to share because then that's Communistic and bull shit.

We need to break with the Left, maybe even break the Left. It's killing us and anarchists gotta fight it.

Anarcho Cappies needs to be broken. Go live in Somalia and tell me how great AnarchoCapitalism is then. AnarchoCapitalist societies will last for a very short time if they ever come to exist. Instead of Warlords who are easily put down by violence, Corporations will pop up, be even more powerful, and end up being the new government.

[danyboy27]

seriously, i dont know what the fuss is all about.

stalin for his country and self interest and his own person killed a lot of innocent, resulting in good and bad things.

us presidents and politician did exactly the same. stalin achievements crumbled in 1991 and the us achievenents crumble constantly.

both did horribles things and good one for a more selfish primary objective.

[Dust Bunnies]

seriously, i dont know what the fuss is all about.

stalin for his country and self interest and his own person killed a lot of innocent, resulting in good and bad things.

us presidents and politician did exactly the same. stalin achievements crumbled in 1991 and the us achievenents crumble constantly.

both did horribles things and good one for a more selfish primary objective.

Why? Because every death Stalin had, whether it was a good death or an accidental, "oops he wasn't a Capitalist agent" death, was a death that went towards aiding the proletariat of the Soviet Union. Sadly his achievements began to crumble in 1956 starting with the Secret Speech.

[Jack]

Here's your first mistake; Leftism is shit, it's not radical and it's counter-revolutionary.

The Left's fetish with organization is it's greatest stumbling block to ever doing anything good; it seeks to organize not only society but people, creating a new morality, building new work ethic. More and more constant bull shit that people dont need.

We need to break with the Left, maybe even break the Left. It's killing us and anarchists gotta fight it.

Could you like, leave now?

[danyboy27]

Why? Because every death Stalin had, whether it was a good death or an accidental, "oops he wasn't a Capitalist agent" death, was a death that went towards aiding the proletariat of the Soviet Union. Sadly his achievements began to crumble in 1956 starting with the Secret Speech.

that all nice but how do you know that all the coups and conspiracy organized by the west havnt only done bad things?

when the west organize a coup in a certain countries it have its bad side and good side. Voluntary or not, a certain modernisation kick in verry often, usually that what make the whole situation explode in te face of the west.

i cant really say it happen all the time, that all the coups being good things, and i wonder how much time it would take to fill the good things vs bad things basket.

since the west have a charged sheet it would take a awful lot of time.

to me, its a little bit like when the russia forced the people living in kazackstan to stop being nomad, it was oroginally an horrible and killied a lot of people thing but today kazackstan is the main electricity supplier of the region so..

[Dust Bunnies]

that all nice but how do you know that all the coups and conspiracy organized by the west havnt only done bad things?

when the west organize a coup in a certain countries it have its bad side and good side. Voluntary or not, a certain modernisation kick in verry often, usually that what make the whole situation explode in te face of the west.

i cant really say it happen all the time, that all the coups being good things, and i wonder how much time it would take to fill the good things vs bad things basket.

since the west have a charged sheet it would take a awful lot of time.

to me, its a little bit like when the russia forced the people living in kazackstan to stop being nomad, it was oroginally an horrible and killied a lot of people thing but today kazackstan is the main electricity supplier of the region so..

Because these western coups open the door to exploitation, something all leftists agree on.

[danyboy27]

Because these western coups open the door to exploitation, something all leftists agree on.

that one of the bad things, and next thng you know there is an uprising of the newly western educated youth in the street.

[Dust Bunnies]

that one of the bad things, and next thng you know there is an uprising of the newly western educated youth in the street.

Western educated youth? The children in Vietnam making the shoes I'm wearing are educated? Capitalism is a pyramid, you have the top (US and friends) and it goes down from there.

[Pogue]

Here's your first mistake; Leftism is shit, it's not radical and it's counter-revolutionary.

The Left's fetish with organization is it's greatest stumbling block to ever doing anything good; it seeks to organize not only society but people, creating a new morality, building new work ethic. More and more constant bull shit that people dont need.

We need to break with the Left, maybe even break the Left. It's killing us and anarchists gotta fight it.

wtf?

[danyboy27]

Western educated youth? The children in Vietnam making the shoes I'm wearing are educated? Capitalism is a pyramid, you have the top (US and friends) and it goes down from there.

hey i didnt mentionned vietnam, you did!
iraq, lybia iran and egypt puppet governement where all originally toppled by educated people, people who benefited from western help.

did i mentionned that every interventionist move the west does inevitably back fire against them a day or another?

when you play with people lives, it always backfire somehow, no matter if your homeboy is stalin or nixon.

[Dust Bunnies]

iraq,

Oil based economy

lybia

Oil based Economy

iran

Oil and Agriculture economy, also, when was Iran puppeted for a long time?

egypt

Oil, tourism, agriculture and media.

Seems like your examples didn't take much knowledge or investment, they just have oil and when they have oil the west jumps after them and controls them.

[Richard Nixon]

[QUOTE]

So an intervention in awar to save their "allies", aka ROK was a puppet to America, from the "Communist cancer" of the DPRK means to you wanting to overthrow a "dictator" and set up a Bougorsie "Democratic" goverment? The US wanted to kick out the DPRK to have their dominace in Korea a whole.

And I'm sure that massacuring civilains was also their plan.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/kor-n17.shtml

ROKA's massacuring police.

http://www.fas.org/news/skorea/1999/...006another.htm


Other massacures

http://www.iacenter.org/Koreafiles/ktc-park.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/07/wo...-reported.html

http://revcom.us/a/136/korea_massacres-en.html

http://www.korea-is-one.org/spip.php?article3108

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...2-06_D94TJ7800

North Korea was a puppet of the Soviets back then and nowadays the Chinese so your point? Also the majority of South Koreans supported their government so the North Korean invasion was unjust aggression. Also some examples of North Korean war crimes:

http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/POWs...ean-War_1.html

The US is spreading its interests by using these dictators and trading with them, as they did with Hitler in the 30s, and will trade with any Capitlaist nation and do anything to keep domiance.

Then why do you criticize the US when we refuse to trade with certain dictators such as Castro. Is it not you want to list every foreign policy move the US has ever made and call it a case of imperialism?