Social democratic measures might make a place better to live in (they do), but my point was that socialism is workers' control of industry, not paternalistic handouts be state, which is social democracy.
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Not exactly, but thinking about it, its more the countries attitude to work. As RGacky3 mentioned, they have a good history of low unemployment, and good work ethic. I have also heard that the differences of income was not so much as it is across Europe (exception being doctors and such).
Other things include the strength of the trade unions there too.
I must add that things are different now from what they where, that is why I mentioned the eras 1920-89. This is the time my Grandad remembered most, and looking at how he was as a person, alot of things that he came out with was very socialistic. I could always see as a kid how the norwegiens differed from the english in values.
Going there now however its totally changed to how I remembered it as a kid. Its almost as if with my grandads death, the country changed over night (not for better or worse). They seem to be hell-bent of becoming a western liberal democracy, and giving up social-democracy.
I must stress that, i do not live there so this is just my impression of things. It would be very interesting to hear actual norwegiens opinions.
Social democratic measures might make a place better to live in (they do), but my point was that socialism is workers' control of industry, not paternalistic handouts be state, which is social democracy.
But isn't that all about how you think of the state? If the state is made up of workers taking a fair share of the nation's resources through taxes on business owners--in a way the business owners are a "tool" of the state owned by the workers. (Certainly they have more votes than the Bourgeois.) Social Democracy is kind of a backward Socialism but it seems to get a similar result as Socialism.
I grew up on stories from my grandfather on how he was cheated by the "socialistic state" as a sailor in the same time period.
Interesting. I have heard abit of stuff like this, but was he referring to the working conditions, or very high taxes? My grandad was a welder in a shipyard, and all i can say is by the time he retired he desperatly needed 'state-help' to help pay for his care. His hands where nearly always closed due to arthritis.
As for the high-taxes, whats your opinion on this? I know that the average wage is much higher than the UK, but does it make a difference? or is everything simply very expensive to counter that? (this is what it looks like from my experience).
IMHO, Cuba is the most free/leftist country in the world right now, followed by Venezuela.
I do not care to speculate on countries that exist in the past since it is often hard to tell what is bourgeoisie propaganda about a past country and what is not.
His main beef was when the government basically nulled the sailors pension fund. He payed in for it his whole working career and then he didn't get shit out of it.
The high taxes are fine, although the upper tax bracket should be higher than the median wage. Also, taxes aren't for rich people, as everywhere else. It is somewhat irritating to pay a higher percentage tax than the top ten list
I've been in Wales and Scotland and from what I could judge we have it more economically comfortable here, but I would guess the high prices counter it a bit.
The taxes are pretty progressive. The working mans wage is much higher. I make about 150% of what I made in the US. Some things are more expensive (most extreme example being alcohol), however its not harder to survive.
Actually like RGacky said, the Zapatista territories probably are.
That's quite a dumb argument. I bet if we were discussing Soviet Russia you would not be saying this.
I dunno if EZLN territory counts as a "country". There are a few other places held by socialist rebels that are probably quite good aswell.
And sorry for not replying earlier, but going back to the allegation that the hundred flowers campaign was just a trap so that mao could kill all opposition, this is complete bullshit. First its worth noting that Mao was at odds with many other members of the communist party, and it was they who forced him to end the campaign and crack down on dissent. But Mao himself always advocated democracy and free debate, even military democracy (an idea unthinkable in a western 'democratic' society). If you look at Mao's writing you can see that a major principle of his is that free debate be allowed in order to find the correct course of action. The campaign was also developed by Zhou Enlai who played a major role in it. If he knew people would be persecuted as a result then he certainly wouldn't have got involved.
Formerly zenga zenga !
They are a bunch of locals running around through the rain forests shooting monkeys out of trees with blowguns--that hardly qualifies as a country. OK, maybe they are a tad more sophisticated than that--but not much.
Besides I think they outlaw liquor! I doubt you can consider the place "civilized" in the least.
You can go ahead and name them if you want, in the meantime I think that the Zapatista territories are pretty good myself going on what we would ideally like and what exists in the here and now.
Also the OP said "country or regime", not just country, regime sounds worse anyway, like a dictatorship.
Venezuela I can understand (it still remains technically a democracy) but Cuba? Then why does Cuba arrest anti-government folks and put them in jail, ban various things (like cellphones until recently), and hundreds of thousands try to escape from Cuba.
Even if that is true then logically Mao did not control Maoist China and therefore it still wasn't a good example of an ideal leftist state.
2+2=4
My nutts have so far been the most adequate example of socialism as Marx described it. Two testicles working together altruistically behind an iron scrotum. Each part a necessary function in the modes of production, distribution and consumption. The anatomy of my nutts consists of a single working class democracy- there are no ruling class beaurocratic, single-party affiliates. They engage in global trade with the rest of the body and raise no sanctions against foreign regions, so they are not isolationists. Concerned with the international struggle of the genitalia, they promote the welfare of the reproductive system at any cost.
Yep, 650Nkr (now around £65) for 24 cans of watered down Hansa Premium is not funny.
No one mentioned Paris Commune?
Of course Mao didnt control China at the time, there were a few competing powers at play. And no one ever claimed it to be an "ideal leftist state", just a good example of a society heading in the right direction.
Formerly zenga zenga !
Not that either, since it's rulers had enough clout to ban free speech.
2+2=4
considering that it only existed for a couple months, and that very little collectivization and radical changes took place (just shifts in who controlled everyday tasks) now it was not an adequate example of "leftism". It was certainly a valiant effort though.
I'll just drop this link here to help with the Cuban argument: http://www.cubatruth.info/
COMMUNISM !