Can religion exist without class hierarchy?

[GracchusBabeuf]

From ancient times, we have seen that religions have constantly justified class hierarchy in the form of

• Ruling clergy
• Feudal lords
• Capitalist class
• Dictators
• Etc

My question is: can religion exist without a class hierarchy or, on the other hand, does religion exist solely to justify class hierarchy?

If we remove class hierarchy and eliminate classes, will religion still exist?

[Dóchas]

why couldnt it? just because there isnt any priests etc. doenst mean that people will stop believing

[GracchusBabeuf]

why couldnt it? just because there isnt any priests etc. doenst mean that people will stop believing

I think that the reason people "believe" is because they been coerced into believing in god(s) by the clergy class in order to justify their (clergy's) own existence. The complete lack of scientific evidence for any god(s) goes to prove this. So I don't think religion can exist in a classless society where all classes (including the clerical class) have been eliminated.

[Dóchas]

but its not just the clergy who do this family and friends also do this so even if there is no church to go to they could still believe and worship together, minus church and clergy

[Decolonize The Left]

No.

Religion serves the purpose of providing meaning in regards to one's existence. Given that it is entirely arbitrary, unjustified, and contradictory, it is a weak form of meaning. It propagates itself through indoctrination and ignorance.

Within a classless society, I assume we have established some sort of communist economic system. If this is the case, then the ability to create meaning for one's life through material means is increased exponentially.

Basically, in a classless society, people won't have a need for religion.

- August

[Dóchas]

No.

Religion serves the purpose of providing meaning in regards to one's existence. Given that it is entirely arbitrary, unjustified, and contradictory, it is a weak form of meaning. It propagates itself through indoctrination and ignorance.

Within a classless society, I assume we have established some sort of communist economic system. If this is the case, then the ability to create meaning for one's life through material means is increased exponentially.

Basically, in a classless society, people won't have a need for religion.

- August

but for some that doesnt mean they wont want to have it

btw im not the biggest fan of religion im just trying to see it from its point of view

[LOLseph Stalin]

I don't think it could exist without a class hierarchy. Religion typically places the church officials above the common person. They would then use this power as a tool to control those below them. Of course the people would obet because the use of faith. In a Communist society there wouldn't be a need for this because people would no longer need an escape from the harsh realities of Capitalist life. If a poor person has nothing to look forward to in this life then it's natural they turn to religion to have hope for a better life after they die i.e- heaven.

[Decolonize The Left]

but for some that doesnt mean they wont want to have it

btw im not the biggest fan of religion im just trying to see it from its point of view

Consider that religion is, by definition, hierarchical and authoritative. "God" is the supreme authority and hence 'above' everyone else.

If society was classless, such a belief system could not be considered compatible with the social strata by any philosophical, rational, or logical, standard. For once you introduce god, then you introduce those who 'speak for god,' etc... and you've got hierarchy once again.

Also, regarding your first comment. Individuals "want" religion because of a massive gaping hole of meaning in their lives. They attempt to fill this hole with delusions about a man in the sky, or a spirit everywhere, or whatever. If society were to be classless, this hole of meaning could be easily filled with actual, tangible, material, actions - you know, living...

- August

[LOLseph Stalin]

Also, regarding your first comment. Individuals "want" religion because of a massive gaping hole of meaning in their lives. They attempt to fill this hole with delusions about a man in the sky, or a spirit everywhere, or whatever. If society were to be classless, this hole of meaning could be easily filled with actual, tangible, material, actions - you know, living...

Yep. Without a gap in your life there's no need to turn to these delusions. It's just silly illogical stuff. Like i'm so sure a virgin can get pregnant...

[GracchusBabeuf]

but its not just the clergy who do this family and friends also do this so even if there is no church to go to they could still believe and worship together, minus church and clergy

I think thats what most believers would ideally want. However in reality, there is always an intervening priest in any religion.

So if there is no clergy class, will the people still want to worship god(s)?

Also have there been any such movements to eliminate the clerical class (and NOT replacing it with another class) by believers of any religion? I would find such things few and far between, because such movements cannot outlast the general dogma in all religions: that there is/are god/s. Thus if people cannot understand why such god(s) should exist, they always look for answers from a priest or some such guy. If this class does not exist, it is likely that people will start to forget and disbelieve in their religions.

[Kronos]

Sure it can. Religion, the metaphysical beliefs themselves, have nothing to do with the material relations of people. It is only when those beliefs influence and dictate those relations such that certain people are responsible for certain roles, certain tasks. For example, a "priest" who did not have to work because he was licensed by God to sit around the chapel and eat cheese all day is allowed that privilege for the wrong reason- there is no God, so there is no permission from God to sit around the chapel all day and eat cheese.

It is these kinds of manipulations in ruling class politics which are not compatible with materialism/socialism.

People can believe all the nonsense they want....but when that nonsense affects the real material relations, we have a problem.

[ibn Bruce]

'The believers are as the teeth of a comb'

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I wonder if the many assumptions made here are in ignorance of the role religion has played in so many class struggles throughout history? I mean the closest England ever came to a 'Socialist' state was a Christian Socialist one in I believe the 13th Century of our common era?

[commyrebel]

Have you people who say that religion wouldn't exists are wrong have you heard of unorganized religion were there's no hierarchy or even an actual church. When i was Christian i we met with other Christians were ever we could just to talk a praise. so it still could exists in a communist society

[LOLseph Stalin]

Have you people who say that religion wouldn't exists are wrong have you heard of unorganized religion were there's no hierarchy or even an actual church. When i was Christian i we met with other Christians were ever we could just to talk a praise. so it still could exists in a communist society

Perhaps you have overlooked the fact that most religions don't advocate equality. You can look at figures like Jesus and almost argue that they were Socialist(helping the poor, etc.), but even now religion fails to give rights and equality to minority groups such as homosexuals and woman being able to make choices concerning their body(abortion). Last time I checked Socialism was about equality for all.

[Vahanian]

Perhaps you have overlooked the fact that most religions don't advocate equality. You can look at figures like Jesus and almost argue that they were Socialist(helping the poor, etc.), but even now religion fails to give rights and equality to minority groups such as homosexuals and woman being able to make choices concerning their body(abortion). Last time I checked Socialism was about equality for all.

Your right, organized religion doesn't allow minority groups choices but thats organized religion not Jesus. Jesus supposedly if he existed would have granted them all rights. organized religion is way to politicized to be of any use, if religion could ever be considered useful

[LOLseph Stalin]

Your right, organized religion doesn't allow minority groups choices but thats organized religion not Jesus. Jesus supposedly if he existed would have granted them all rights. organized religion is way to politicized to be of any use, if religion could ever be considered useful

I agree. It's not really Jesus who is the problem, but organized religion. I say get rid of organized religion and if people must worship they can do it in the privacy of their own homes.

[ibn Bruce]

Last time I checked Socialism was about equality for all.

Except religious people?

[al8]

For people, against reactionaries. If people identify as reactionaries we are against them. We are not for people as they are, but of what they could be. It is not our job to identify with normal people, i.e to accept, encourage or aquiece to normalcy in the mainstream sense. But to identify with unnormal people (freaks, extremist, wierdos, utopians ect.), i.e to accept, encourage normalcy in the revolutionary sense only. The majority are not communists yet we make a devide, a necissary rift to battle that destiction out. And we are not afraid it will alienate or annoy people stuck in normalcy that we want them to change and adopt to our view, that can't be helped.

[Random Precision]

I wonder if the many assumptions made here are in ignorance of the role religion has played in so many class struggles throughout history? I mean the closest England ever came to a 'Socialist' state was a Christian Socialist one in I believe the 13th Century of our common era?

No idea what you're talking about. The English Civil War (17th century) was partially inspired by Puritanism. After the revolution theater performances were banned, etc. Certainly quite far away from socialism. Before that, there was the Peasants Revolt (14th century) which actually attacked the Church and religious hierarchy- demanded no more than one bishop for all of England, executed the Archbishop of Canterbury, etc.

As for the original question. I'll let my amigo Engels do the talking:

"The actual basis of the religious reflective activity therefore continues to exist, and with it the religious reflection itself... It is still true that man proposes and God (that is, the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production) disposes. Mere knowledge, even if it went much further and deeper than that of bourgeois economic science, is not enough to bring social forces under the domination of society. What is above all necessary for this, is a social act. And when this act has been accomplished, when society, by taking possession of all means of production and using them on a planned basis, has freed itself and all its members from the bondage in which they are now held by these means of production which they themselves have produced but which confront them as an irresistible alien force, when therefore man no longer merely proposes, but also disposes — only then will the last alien force which is still reflected in religion vanish; and with it will also vanish the religious reflection itself, for the simple reason that then there will be nothing left to reflect."

[Dóchas]

I agree. It's not really Jesus who is the problem, but organized religion. I say get rid of organized religion and if people must worship they can do it in the privacy of their own homes.

thats what iv been saying, just because you take away the church and priests doesnt mean it wont continue to exist within the home and between family and friends although i can imagine over time people will stop practising it due to the lack of an incentive to keep them going ie. church every sunday or whatever holy day its on.