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Why so far, no famine has been observed in Saudi Arab, the Gulf countries and in the South East Asia? If the so called "lack of democracy" is the basic reason behind the famines.
Why don't the USA has famines too?
The famines in the USSR and China were made possible by the fact that these were still overwhelmingly peasant societies in which pre-capitalist relations were prominent. Societies in which a majority of the population are dependant on subsistence farming are particularly vulnerable to famine conditions. Conversely industrialised societies - in which agriculture has been rationalised and diversified, and is no longer the primary occupation of the population - are far less susceptible to changing weather conditions
Which is not to say that the Soviet and Chinese governments cannot be faulted for exacerbating famine conditions through poor economic management
Last edited by ComradeOm; 20th March 2010 at 19:32.
March at the head of the ideas of your century and those ideas will follow and sustain you. March behind them and they will drag you along. March against them and they will overthrow you.
Napoleon III
Thank you for the clarification ComradeOm. However, famine was not a constant condition of life in the PRC or the USSR. The particular famines in question were the direct result of state policies.
pranabjyoti and BR, the countries you described are openly capitalist, so it's surprising that they manage to feed the people. The USSR and the PRC claimed to be socialist, but one would think a famine due to overreporting or national feuds between bureaucrats should be impossible in socialism. So, are you implying that the Soviet famine of 1932-33 and the Chinese famine of 1958-1961 were not related to government decisions?
Saudi Arab is openly capitalist! Do you have any idea about capitalism and democracy. So far, with my little understanding of the conditions of USSR and PRC, I can say that the "famines" were happened during the transition phase, as what ComradeOm has said.
Yes,my impeccable sources are from proletarian intellectuals.
No,not me,but you have problems with references,you could find fault with only one item from a large text.
The desire of the bourgeoisie and it's yes-men from so cold "leftists" to exaggerate the scale of the disaster in the Soviet Union is understandable.
But what you want to prove by that?Hunger was a constant phenomenon in Russia before the revolution, Stalin's government finished with it - that is a fact.Those of you who can prove that everything was the opposite,let him first cast a stone at me.
What kind of theory were they, why they do not lead to an annual famine in the USSR , only one time in China - can you explain me?
I think there is a lot of misconception and a lot of buying into capitalist propaganda on this question but I really don't think Stalin as a person is that important. What is important are his ideas, his actions as leader of the Soviet Union etc. Whatever one wants to say about him as a person it should not cloud the fact that the Soviet Union in those years stands as an example of how socialism can transform a society from one that was in rubble, poverty, ignorance, and hunger to a world super power wherein the people have food, housing, education, work, medical care and so on.
Stalin, the Anti-revolutionary
Stalin crushed true socialist revolutions on several occassions; in Spain, in the Ukraine, etc. He collaborated with Hitler and the Fascists (who eventually betrayed him), an offense he used SEVERAL times to purge his perceived enemies by labeling them fascists (ironic, huh?) or Trotskyites. He collaborated with kapitalist puppet democracies, and instituted undemocratic state-run kapitalism. He was no Marxist, nor even by the slightest measurement a true socialist, he was however a fascist, an authoritarian leader, and a anti-revolutionary. He protected the petty bourgeois and their interests. He blackened the term communist in the 20th century...
Must I say more?
OH and
Let us not confuse the triumph of the Russian people (and for that matter all the antifascists in Europe) as being Stalin's own. The Soviets took the brunt of the German Wermacht spearhead through most of the war, and it held the line despite devastating causualty rates and horrendous conditioins, true proletarian resistance indeed! This victory however, should not be linked to Stalin, for it was the Soviet proletariat who faced the fascist guns on the front, not the bourgeois Soviet government.
Take note, fascism can never be truly defeated, it is a tendency just like that of greed or jealousy. And as history shows, fascism gripped the USSR through most of Stalins tenure.
I gave facts and figures describing the reign of Stalin, and what did Trotskyists give us except chatter?
In general, the fact that Trots propaganda merges with the bourgeois propaganda, clearly shows the class nature of these gentlemen.
The non-agression pact allowed the Soviets to fight the Japanese and prepare further for (what the Soviets knew was inevitable) war with the Nazis.
So i suppose the Soviets could have taken on the world in one go? Sure, Soviet Socialism was succesaful, but not that succesful.
Now Stalin made some theoretical errors, however, to claim he was no Marxist is false. How else would you explain the fact that he was writting Marxist essays well before the revolution? Why did he continue to write on theoretical issues e.g. "Economic problems of socialism in the soviet union" when he didnt need to? Was he just doing it to give me a rebuttle to stupid people like you writing stuff like this.
You dont know what fascism is then.
A revolution is the most authorian thing we can do. However, to an extent, i agree Stalin's methods were too "top down".
erm....lol? I dont know whether to call you a liar or an idiot.
Ok, even if we accept your moronic statement that what Stalin made was "state capitalism", how, in anyway is that in the interests of the small business owner?
Yes, because Communism would be seen as such a great idea to the Capitalists had Iosef Stalin not been born. And you have the cheek to call Stalin not a Marxist.
No, just log off.
Says who?
One of the fundamental problems with arguing with a typical Stalinist is their reliance on circular reasoning. Given that "bourgeois academics" obviously cannot be trusted then the only works that have merit are those that emerge from a socialist society (or good Soviet "proletarian intellectuals"). But how do we know that this society is socialist or the intellectuals suitably proletarian...? Why that's easy, we merely fall back on the only trustworthy sources - those of Soviet academics and "proletarian intellectuals"
This is the inevitable, and profoundly stupid, result of considering every work that does not emanate from a particular narrow intellectual milieu to be ideologically suspect
You want me to prove a negation? How about the fact that under Stalin's government (millions) more people died of starvation than under that of, say, Khrushchev?
I disagree. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that famine would not have struck the Ukraine had Soviet state policies been different. At the very least the weather of that year entailed a severe drought. I reiterate my belief that the Soviet state did not cause the famineOriginally Posted by Kléber
What it can be faulted for however is the gross economic mismanagement that turned this famine into a major humanitarian disaster. I elaborated on this is earlier posts (up to page 3 of this thread I believe)
March at the head of the ideas of your century and those ideas will follow and sustain you. March behind them and they will drag you along. March against them and they will overthrow you.
Napoleon III
To Bailey_41
You obviously know nothing of history, well except for what Stalinist propaganda you've immersed yourself in has taught you. Soviets fought the Japanese, eh? The Soviets did relatively next to nothing to aid Mao's revolutionary army, in fear that they would ultimately lose their ongoing civil war with the Kuomintang. This my friend, is the seed of the Sino-Soviet Split that came to fruitition in the 50's. What Stalin did do however, was invade Poland and Finland, and other Eastern EU countries, in accordance of course with his plan with Hitler to divide Europe between themselves. Who knows, if Hitler had never attacked the Soviets...
erm....lol? I dont know whether to call you a liar or an idiot.
Judging from your (uneducated) statements, I think YOU ARE THE IDIOT.
Ok, even if we accept your moronic statement that what Stalin made was "state capitalism", how, in anyway is that in the interests of the small business owner?
Well, well, well. The ardent Marxist-Lennist-Stalinist is worried about the small business owner! (Much like Stalin, and his Popular Front scheme).Why do you assume I care about the small business owner? Lolz, assumming too much eh? The COLLAPSE OF SOVIET 'SOCIALISM' is not a rebuttal of socialism, but a direct consequence of monopoly kapitalism, which in the USSR was controlled by the State Politburo, led by Stalin. Kapitalism was never undone or reversed in the USSR, instead it was manifested and adopted by the bougeoise govenment, that you adore, defend and admire. Much like the current situation in China, where we have a 'communist' regime, fully involved in free market kapitalism/exploitation/imperialism. Sure is revolutionary huh? Im sure the kapitalists are trembling in their boots!
Remember Stalinist dimwits, NATIONALIZATION DOES NOT = SOCIALISM.
As a matter a fact its the worst kind of "socialism", where one as the proletariat seves the needs of the bourgeousie government, believing that kapitalism was overthrown, while only replacing your privatized shackles, with shackles painted in patriotic colors, FUCK THAT.
If you dont know why I call Stalin a fascist. If you dont know what kapitalism is. If you dont agree that Stalin protected the petty bougeouise (internationally). If you think that by 1935, the USSR was still a revolutionary force, then you my friend HAVE A LOT OF READING TO DO. And the last thing you should be doing is spreading misinformation or outright lies about the failed communist model of the 20th century (again, developed largely by Stalin).
Last edited by Jacobinist; 23rd March 2010 at 02:36. Reason: Error
Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany during WWII and what Stalin 'invaded' from Poland is snatched up part of Ukraine and Belarus by Brest-Litovosk treaty.
No, wrong, twisting the facts again arent we? Finland became a German ally AFTER THE SOVIETS INVADED. The soviet invasion and subsequent debacle also shows how lowly the Stalinist military was (after purges eliminated the smartest, and thus most dangerous officers).
Only then, did Germany offer to help Finland.
Why so much ignorance on this site? Fuck. Its not even ignorance, its obstruction of truths and most dangerous of all, its lies and misinformation.
Last edited by Jacobinist; 23rd March 2010 at 02:39. Reason: Typo
Information for thought.
Not long ago there was the anniversary : 45 years ago,at 19 March 1965 during the flight at spaceship "Voskhod-2" Alexey Leonov made the first in the history of space out in the open spacespaceship .
Born May 30, 1934 in the village Listvyanka, now the Kemerovo region,Alexey was the ninth child in the family. In 1938, he and his mother moved to Kemerovo. In 1943 he went to primary school. In 1948 the family moved to the city of Kaliningrad where he graduated a High school in 1953 year. In 1955 he graduated from the 10 th Military Aviation School of the initial training of pilots in Kremenchug, which he entered on the Young Communist League set. In 1957 he graduated from Chuguyivske Military Aviation School . In 1960 he was enrolled in the first detachment of Soviet cosmonauts.
Thus, the ninth son of a peasant finishes school and becomes the first pilot. and then an astronaut. Note this fact.
And here are roads to the astronauts of other people from the first space unit:
Yury Gagarin: by origin comes from a peasant: his father, Alexei Ivanovich Gagarin (1902-1973), - a carpenter, his mother, Anna Matveeva Timofeevna (1903-1984) - worked on a dairy farm. During nearly 1,5 years the village Klushino was occupied by German troops.
In May 1949, Gagarin graduated from sixth grade Gzhatsk high school, and 30 September Lyuberetskiy enrolled in vocational school № 10. Simultaneously enrolled in night school for working youth, the seventh grade where he graduated in May 1951 and in June he graduated with honors from college with specialty of molder.
In August 1951, Gagarin joined the Saratov Industrial Technical School, and Oct. 25, 1954 he joined the Saratov Flying Club. In 1955, Yuri Gagarin had made significant progress, graduated with honors from school and made the first solo flight on a plane Yak-18.
October 27, 1955 Gagarin was drafted and sent to Orenburg, to the 1 st Military Aviation School. In October 25, 1957 Gagarin graduated from college with honors. Within two years he served in the 169 th Fighter Aviation Regiment 122 th Fighter Division of the Northern Fleet.In December 9, 1959 Gagarin written statement requesting to enroll him in a group of candidates in cosmonauts. </span>
Gherman Titov was born Sept. 11, 1935 in the village of Upper Zhilino Kosikhino District of the Altai Territory in the family of teachers. In 1953 he graduated from high school in the village Nalobiha.
In the army since July 1953. In 1955 he graduated from the 9 th Air Force School of initial training of pilots (g.Kustanay), in 1957 - Stalingrad Military Aviation School (Novosibirsk). He served in the military line units (in the Leningrad Military District).
In 1957 he graduated from the Stalingrad Military Aviation School. In 1960, he was enrolled in the cosmonaut corps. </span>
Pavel Popovich:Pilot-cosmonaut, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, Air Force Major General Pavel Romanovich Popovich was born October 5, 1930 in the Kiev region of Ukraine in the family of fireman. During the Great Patriotic War was at occupied territory.
The school was closed and Pavel was able to continue his studies only after the arrival of Soviet troops. The times were difficult, and that's why Paul did not quit school, he entered an apprentice fireman at the factory where his father worked. Soon, he was admitted to the vocational school. In 1947,he was qualified carpenter and also graduated from seventh grade night school. In the same year he entered the Magnitogorsk industrial college. Along with studying at college he was engaged in a flying club. In 1951 he graduated from college and flying club. In 1951 he entered, and in 1954 he graduated the Kachin Military Aviation School behalf AF Myasnikov. After graduating from college he served in the parts of the Air Forces of the USSR. In 1960 enlisted in the detachment of Soviet cosmonauts. </span>
Valentina Tereshkova:Born March 6, 1937 in the village Maslennikovo Tutayev district of the Yaroslavl region in the family of farmers. Her father worked as a tractor driver, her mother was engaged in housework, worked on the farm. During the Great Patriotic War, her father was killed at the front, and mother with three children moved to the city of Yaroslavl. There little Valya went to school. She graduated from seven years school and then the evening school for working youth. At the end of June 1954 she came to work at the Yaroslavl Tire Plant in the assembly shop as a tailor.
In 1956 she entered the Yaroslavl Correspondence College of Light Industry. Besides working and studying in the college she attended a local flying club and was engaged in parachuting, made 163 parachute jumps. She was awarded the first class of parachute jumping.
The Mill Red Perekop joined the Komsomol, and in 1960 was elected secretary of the Komsomol organization of the plant. In 1960 she graduated from the Yaroslavl Correspondence College of Light Industry. She worked as a Free Secretary of the Komsomol committee Yaroslavl combine technical fabrics "Red Perekop until 1962, when she was credited to the detachment of Soviet cosmonauts</span>.
Evgeny Khrunov:Born September 10, 1933 in the village ponds Volovské district of the Tula region in a large peasant family. Besides him, Vasily Yegorovich and Agrafena Nikolaevna Khrunova had two daughters and five sons. It was not easy at the postwar years, especially after his father died. Mother alone had to raise a numerous family.
With eight years Eugeny dreamed of becoming a pilot. He received secondary education in rural schools, then graduated from college with a degree in Mechanical on tractors and automobiles.
In 1952, Eugene Khrunov was drafted into the army and enlisted in the military aviation school. In 1956, after Bataisk Military Aviation School, aims to serve in the 86-th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment 119 th Fighter Air Division, 48 th Air Force. </span>In 1959 Khrunov with Viktor Gorbatko caught up with him in the same unit, has successfully passed the medical board and was soon enlisted in the military unit 26266 - the future of Cosmonaut Training Center. </span></span>
Georgy Dobrovolsky: was born June 1, 1928 in Odessa, a working class family in the marginal zones of Mills. He spent two and a half years, from October 1941 to April 1944, in the occupied territory, after all this time, Odessa was under the German-Romanian authorities.
In 1946 he graduated from the Odessa Special School Air Force, then Chuguyev pilot school, the Air Force Academy. Detachment of astronauts since 1963.
So,what do we see?
Most of the astronauts came from the "common people", from peasants. And many of them from large families. And some families have lost their fathers at all during the war.
And yet they could not only finish school and get a profession, but also to become an elite of the country.
And this was made possible by implementing the most important principle, which is essential for the successful existence of the state - the availability of operating social elevators available to those who are truly worthy of their abilities to become the best part of society. And as you can see, in the USSR, these elevators were working very successfully.
And it was due to Stalin, during whose governing the opportunities were created for all is indeed capable of it. Chain of "School" - "college (vocational school)" - "flying club" - "Summer School" - "air" - "cosmonaut" could pass anyone who had the strength, abilities, and most importantly - the desire.</span></span>
And now a simple question. Will they repeat the path Alexei Leonov today for the boys from a peasant family with many children?
What 'd you say,gentlemen Trots?Would you still tell us fairy tales about "state capitalism", "dictatorship of beurocracy","Stalin's fascism","degenerative working state" in the USSR?
"Degenerative working state",indeedOr perhaps somebody have degenarative brain?
"the availability of operating social elevators available to those who are truly worthy of their abilities to become the best part of society. And as you can see, in the USSR, these elevators were working very successfully." -Soviet
I agree with what you say, and that those 'elevators' are vital. But you are selectively choosing whom you choose to use as an example of Soviet kapitalism; which you dismiss as a fairy tale. No true communist should stand for a sub-par degenerative kapitalist state. But if you want to play such games, then Michael Jackson came from a large 'peasant' family (dad worked in steel industry) and yet he reached success too! You should be more creative when defending the indefensible.
And the Soviet politicians had a funny way of defining 'peasant.' Sometimes, even calling skilled labor professions 'peasants' because they worked using their hands. By that definition, an educated typographist is a peasant. So, again, read up on how things are sometimes spun, and then decide for yourself.
Hey Mr. Knowledgeable, as far as I know, there was no purging done in France, so why the mighty French army knelt down before the Nazi Germany in just a few weeks. Why Belgium, Holland and some other European countries just broke like palace of cards before German invasion? Why UK and other European forces agreed to "gift" Sudetenland and other part of former Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany? Why the Czech rulers were "alone" during the Nazi invasion.
Finland, from the very beginning (kindly go to textbooks and have some knowledge of history) is anti-soviet. Actually, it had separated after 1917 just the rulers of Finland don't want to be a part of USSR. For a long time, it has been a very good center of anti-soviet activities after 1917.
"Hey Mr. Knowledgeable, as far as I know" - PranaBJ..
Thats the problem, 'as far as YOU know,' when apparently you're not too well informed on those events.
First, we were talking about Finland, and yet you bring in France, Belgium, Sudetenland, the Czech, etc.
Why? Have you heard of the kapitliast democracy tactic of appeasment? Its also why they let Spain fall with out providing a single rifle to the democratically elected Republican government. Why did France, Belguim, etc fall so rapidly? Because Hitler had a better equipped, well trained and experienced (from the battles in Spain) Wermacht! (army units). Germany in the 30's pulled itself out of the depression by developing a 'war' economy in a time of peace, leading to large weapons arsenals, advanced tanks and fighter planes, etc etc. Also, in the 1930's before the war, the kapitalist democracies were more afraid of real revolutionary communists toppling kapitalism, and thus too many saw Hitler as the 'lesser evil.' Lets not be so ignorant, ok?
About Finland. They actually didn't do nothing wrong separating themselves from the Russian empire (not USSR yet). The Bolshevik government had issued a decree of 'self-determination' (Dec. '17) allowing certain territories to secede from the empire, legally. Look it up genius.
And then came the Winter War of '39. Stalin's commitment to Hitler, represented by the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact outlined that Eastern EU would be divided in spheres of influence. Stalin's invasion of Finland is suppose to reinforce his 'sphere' and thus his contract with Hitler in eastern EU. When Finland found itself under attack however, it was Hitler himself who offered arms, cash and assistance to them to help defeat the Soviets. Hitler was pretty smart, Stalin on the other hand, was not. He played into Hitlers game.
If Stalin had really only 'accepted' the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to buy time for the preparation of war with Germany, he certainly didn't help himself by invading countries, instead of preparing for war with Germany, did he? Weird huh rookie?
Last edited by Jacobinist; 23rd March 2010 at 19:45.
Lol, Jacobinist, you really are hilarious. I have made up my mind, i will not call you a liar, but an idiot.
You know the Japanese invaded parts of the Soviet Union too? Well done on attempting to show your knowledge of Chinese history, but i wasnt talking about China.
The Japanese problem was not however the major cause of the pact. The major cause was for the Soviet Union to prepare for war.
"The Polish territories occupied by the Red Army..were infact the Western regions of the Ukraine and Belarussia. They lay east if the so called 'Curzon Line' - the ethnographical frontier between Russia and Poland drawn up by a commision of the Paris Peace Conference in 1919......The final boarder however, was determined by Polish military success in the war and the Soviet Union ceded Western Ukraine and Western Belarussia to Poland in the Treaty of Riga 1921" (Geoffrey Roberts - Stalin's Wars pg. 37 - Yale University Press; 2006).
So you could say the USSR invaded Poland, but to take back territories stolen from it by a cartel of crypto-fascists in 1921.
Wow. Want to provide some evidence for this? Also noted in Roberts - Stalin's Wars is that fact that the Soviets had drawn up plans for an offensive war. However, Stalin primarily wished to maintain peace (rendering any conspiracy of a Soviet-Nazi takeover of Europe false) as he feared with war breaking out the Nazis and West would unite againt their common enemy; Communists. Such was not the case, but its a fair suspicion for a Marxist to have right?
Wow, way to not read what i wrote and put words in my mouth. You said Stalin represented the interests of the petty-bourgeosie (small business owners). How in anway would the interests of the small business owener lye in their complete liquidation as a class and the creation of an intirely planned and centralised economy?Well, well, well. The ardent Marxist-Lennist-Stalinist is worried about the small business owner! (Much like Stalin, and his Popular Front scheme).Why do you assume I care about the small business owner? Lolz, assumming too much eh? The COLLAPSE OF SOVIET 'SOCIALISM' is not a rebuttal of socialism, but a direct consequence of monopoly kapitalism, which in the USSR was controlled by the State Politburo, led by Stalin. Kapitalism was never undone or reversed in the USSR, instead it was manifested and adopted by the bougeoise govenment, that you adore, defend and admire. Much like the current situation in China, where we have a 'communist' regime, fully involved in free market kapitalism/exploitation/imperialism. Sure is revolutionary huh? Im sure the kapitalists are trembling in their boots!
I dont know why you talk of Capitalist China - i say Capitalism was put in place in China in the late 70s.
Where have i ever said it is?
Ok, the rest of what you said is inchorent nonsense (more so than what you wrote above which was not near of) so i wont reply. I dont know why you think you are so clever. If you are wrong and modest, all is well and good. But you are wrong and think you know more.
