Why I am a Titoist

There's only so much to like compared to the bad things I suppose.

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I agree with the posters who say socialism was not achieved in Yugoslavia. By the classical Marxism definition of socialism, that is true.

However, I think Yugoslavia was among the best of the degenerated/deformed "workers" states. There was inexcusable murder and repression, but not nearly on the same scale as happened elsewhere. The country developed pretty well, there was a good bit of egalitarianism, and the citizens had more liberties than some other places. There was even a decent amount of dissent allowed, for instance Dusan Makavejev's films "Man is not a Bird" and "WR: Mysteries of the Organism."

And of course, just look at what happened when Yugoslavia collapsed/was dismembered. A bloody ethnic conflict, full of atrocity. You see what Yugoslavia managed to prevent... and have to give credit.

One old man in the market just off the main square in Zagreb once told me, "socialism was the best thing that ever happened to us. You Americans just don't understand. This war, these bombings, are all because socialism was defeated" --- or something to that effect. I can't remember it was more than a couple years ago. Anyway, it is hard to argue his point. Capitalism and war have devastated those countries. The only "normal" one is Slovenia and semi-normal is Croatia.

lol, where did you hear that people were "murdered" for stating their opinions in SFRY?

You have to recognize the context in which Tito was ruling. He came to power immediately following an ethnic civil war. The territory of Yugoslavia is very ethnically diverse and mixed. A "majority rules" democracy would never have worked (as we are seeing now in Bosnia) because it would have been seen as the tyranny of the majority nationality over the others.

Again, I ask you to name a socialist country that you think was better than the SFRY.

Quite possibly, of all the countries claiming to be "socialist", Yugoslavia was the best one to live in, despite still being rather repressive, especially towards dissidents. Saying this by itself does not, however, make Yugoslavia more "socialist" than Russia, China, North Korea etc. In fact saying this by itself does not make Yugoslavia socialist at all.

Tito, regardless of his future disagreements with Stalin, was Stalin's man in the Yugoslavian party all the way through until he took power. His methods, his ideology and his practice were and always remained Stalinist. In fact saying that Yugoslavia is a socialist country is based on the first ideological premise of Stalinism: the idea that there can be a socialist country, the idea that socialism in one country is a possibility. This is not only Stalin's most fundamental perversion of the opinions of Marx, Engels and Lenin all of whom argued that socialism can only be built on a world-wide level, as a result of the word revolution, but it is also a counter-revolutionary rejection of proletarian internationalism.

Tito's Yugoslavia wasn't a "workers' state" either. The working class never took power in Yugoslavia, nor did it ever have anything to do at all with the state. Tito and his partisans took power in Yugoslavia, and they did that not for the interests of the Yugoslavian working class or the international proletariat: they took power in their own interests, in the interests of the Yugoslav national capital and in Russian foreign interests. Tito's regime was always a bourgeois and capitalist regime. Tito was one of the more honest leaders of the so-called "socialist" countries in that he didn't actually hide that he lived a very bourgeois life that much. The non-aligned movement was of course a bourgeois movement to the core, including nasty militarist and dictatorial leaders with a good amount of blood on their hands.

The worst crime of Titoism however was producing Hoxhaism. Yugoslavia and their relations with other countries shaped the entire Albanian state ideology. Had Tito left Albania alone and just gave them Kosovo, Hoxha and his colleges wouldn't have had formed such fanatical alliances with Russian and Chinese imperialists and then come up with their own insane brand of Stalinism.

I agree with Leo on everything, except on Hoxhaism. I don’t wanna discuss Kosovo in a way “who should really have it”, because that reminds me of nationalist – right wing discussions and similar shit (I know that that wasn’t Leo’s attention). It’s quite obvious why did Yugoslavia took Kosovo, because they liberated whole territory of ex-Kingdom of Yugoslavia and took it under their control. I don’t agree that with Kosovo being Albanian (in a sense of belonging to Albanian state) would prevent creation of Hoxhaism. Hoxhasim was created in 1948 with Yugoslavia being kicked out of Comintern. It’s ideology of paranoia, because of Albanian’s geographical position. As you can see Albania was encircled with their “enemies”, so Hoxha was afraid all the time that Yugoslavia would attack Albania. Of course, this was just his paranoia, because Yugoslavia had better reasons to be afraid of attack from Eastern Block if we consider that it had borders with Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania.

Actually Hoxha wasn't all that concerned with Kosova remaining in Yugoslavia. In fact in 1946 he explicitly said that, "Is it in our interests to ask for Kosovo? That is not a progressive thing to do. No, in this situation, on the contrary, we must do whatever is possible to ensure that the Kosovars become brothers with the Yugoslavs." (quoted in Kosovo: A Short History, p. 319.) During the war the CPA strongly denounced the "uniting" of Kosova with the rest of Albania via Italian and later German occupation, and noted that the question of Kosova could only be decided by the Kosovar Albanians themselves on the basis of the liberation of both Albania and Yugoslavia from fascism.

The issue was that Kosovar Albanians were unequal within Yugoslavia. They were the poorest region, they were subject to discrimination and police repression, and in the late 1980's endured open supremacism against them by Serbs, which led to the 90's and Kosovar Albanians hailing NATO as their "savior" from Milošević's men. From 1948 onwards when Hoxha was able to openly criticize Yugoslavia's treatment of Kosovar Albanians he made clear that Albania was not demanding Kosova, it was demanding equality for Kosovar Albanians within it. In fact right-wing Albanian nationalists denounce Hoxha as a "traitor" to Albanian "national interests." Quite a few Kosovar Albanian nationalists fled to Albania and were promptly sent back to Yugoslavia throughout the 1950's-80's. Said right-wingers also denounce Hoxha as a "Serb agent" because the CPA worked closely with the CPY during WWII, and also because the CPA opposed the right-wing and collaborationist Balli Kombëtar, which called for an "ethnic Albania" during that time.

Edit: A fatal dent in the whole "Enver Hoxha's ideological views revolved around Yugoslavia and Tito" claim consists in the fact that Albania improved diplomatic and economic relations with Yugoslavia both after the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and after the Sino-Albanian split. Said relations were strongly hampered in 1981 with the suppression of Kosovar student protests and Yugoslavia claiming that Albania was behind them. Albania feared an invasion from the Warsaw Pact or NATO more than Yugoslavia.

A 1980 Zëri i Popullit article noted that, "In the face of the threats of the Soviet, American and other imperialist aggressors against Yugoslavia, the Albanian people adhere to what comrade Enver Hoxha said at the Seventh Congress of the Party of Labour of Albania, that in the case of an eventual attack by the Soviet Union or any power against Yugoslavia, the Albanian people will stand by the Yugoslav peoples. Thus everyone can rest assured that if the question arises of the defence of freedom and independence from imperialist aggressors of no matter what kind, the Albanians and Yugoslavs will once more fight together against the common enemies as they fought in the past." This didn't stop Hoxha denouncing Titoism, it didn't stop him writing a lengthy memoir called The Titoites in 1982, nor did it stop him from noting Yugoslavia's dependence on Western loans in a 1978 book he authored titled Yugoslav "Self-Administration": A Capitalist Theory and Practice.

Yes - I am not saying Albania should have had Kosovo, or that Yugoslavia should have had it. What I am saying is that Yugoslavia wanting Albania, and Albania wanting Kosovo in turn caused the ideological twists and turns of Albanian Stalinism to be determined more or less by Yugoslavian foreign policy.

What Hoxha and his colleagues said during the WW2 or even in 1946 is fundamentally irrelevant. Hoxha's main concern during the war obviously wasn't the threat of a Yugoslav attack. Evidently they "denounced the uniting of Kosova with the rest of Albania via Italian and later German occupation", because their main concern at the time was the Italians and the Germans. They had been demanding and aiming the formation of Greater Albania since 1943 (The Mukje Agreement) however they had to give up their demands for a Yugoslav cession of Kosovo to Albania after the war under pressure from the Yugoslavs. This was due to the fact that Albania had become a Yugoslav satellite state after the war. In 1946 when Hoxha said all these, Albania was basically a Yugoslav puppet state, based on the Yugoslavs buying Albanian raw materials. In 1947, however, the relations started getting worse, as the Albanians started thinking that the money they were being paid for the raw materials actually wasn't enough and the Yugoslavs started talking about integrating Albania. Several important members of the Albanian People's Assembly who opposed Yugoslavia got arrested, Hoxha's ally Spiru was targeted, didn't get any support from his own party (even Hoxha betrayed and denounced him for distrupting Albanian-Yugoslav relations) and ended up committing suicide, Hoxha was bitterly criticized for pitting the Albanian public against Yugoslavia and the Albanian Party itself, evidently not being taken seriously enough, wasn't invited to the founding of the Cominform and Albania was represented by the Yugoslavian Party. Stalin told Djilas that Yugoslavia should swallow Albania. The Albanian Party itself was almost going to yield, and they had appealed to join Yugoslavia as a seventh republic, yet when Yugoslavia's relations with Russia broke, the Albanian Party immediately took the opportunity and made a u-turn.

Living conditions wise, and especially after the 70ies, they were hardly any worse than the Albanians in Albania. Of course they were subjected to national oppression. Again, of course, they were simply used as a trump-card in the negotiations between greater power pursuing their own interests and ambitions.

They rather played the issue up as a trump card - it wouldn't seem nice of course, saying they wanted to annex Kosovo. And of course, the Yugoslavians were as much concerned about the treatment of the Albanians in Albania as the Albanians were about the treatment of the Kosovans.

Of course there were times, when it suited his interests, that Hoxha actually did work as a "Serb agent" of sorts. However, the CPA did initially collaborate with Balli Kombëtar, they did sign the Mukje Agreement with him after all. It didn't go so far of course when Kombëtar and his men chose to work with the Germans.

Actually, Hoxha's siding with China against Russia was exactly determined by the Yugoslav-Soviet relations. By 1956 following the death of Stalin, the Yugoslavians and the Russians had made their peace and got so close that Tito was among the first to support the suppression of the Hungarian workers uprising. When Hoxha, in turn, broke with China, the Chinese had got closer to the Yugoslavians via the Non-Aligned Movement and their mutual healthy relations with the Americans. Tito thus, surprisingly, became one of the first to run to Mao's funeral to pay his respects in 1976. The fact that certain overtures occasionally took place is not surprising. In the world of bourgeois states, there are fundamentally no enemies - only rivals.

Yes, well by 1980, having burned their relations with the Russians as well as the Chinese, the Albanians needed somewhere to go. Making certain overtures towards the Yugoslavians was one option, since without being supported by a stronger force, the Albanian economy would have collapsed. The Yugoslavians didn't help - the Albanian economy collapsed.

Nor did it stop him from building hundreds of thousands of bunkers all over Albania.

Hoxha denounced the agreement shortly after its formation, and of the two CPA representatives who signed it, one of them (Ymer Dishnica) was a "moderate" who the very anti-communist and anti-Hoxha Albanian émigré Arshi Pipa notes was more of a nationalist than a communist. (Albanian Stalinism, p. 78.) Saying that they "demanded" it is certainly incorrect considering that even if we accept a version of history wherein Hoxha thought the Agreement was a good idea, this was a meeting in which a compromise was adopted by the CPA delegates and the BK delegates. A compromise the CPA leadership regarded as unprincipled and giving in to nationalism.

This is true, but at the same time Hoxha never moved away from this position. In his book The Titoites he defended the position of the CPA in-re the Mukje Agreement and on its position vis-à-vis Kosova.

Including Kost Boshnjaku, the first Albanian sent by the Comintern in 1918.

Of course Hoxha was facing the same sort of pressure Spiro himself was. Spiro winded up taking his own life and thus strengthening the pro-Yugoslav wing of the Party while Hoxha risked execution for his stands which, as you yourself can agree, were obviously not in accord with Yugoslavia's wishes.

As I've noted in another thread, Stalin basically admitted that he knew nothing about Albania. He got his information on Albania from Yugoslav sources until 1947 (when Hoxha was able to visit) and 1948. Stalin didn't say "I don't care about Albania, treat them like dirt," he was assuming that what the Yugoslavs were saying about everything being fine was more or less correct and was speaking more in terms of how the West would react to such an annexation.

That was under the direction of Koçi Xoxe, Yugoslavia's man in Tirana who had proposed that Albania join it after the Yugoslavs "suggested" it to the CPA.

Really? Ramadan Marmalluku (a Yugoslav functionary) noted in the 1970's that 30% of the Kosovar Albanian population was illiterate whereas illiteracy had basically been obliterated in Albania. That's one improvement.

Hoxha viewed the Soviet-Yugoslav rapprochement as an indication of Soviet revisionism rather than the originating factor of said revisionism. Hoxha notes in his memoirs (and his diaries) that he was already suspicious of the post-Stalin government.

For instance we have this:

"Moscow, Sunday
February 26 1956

All night long I read the secret report of N. Khrushchev that he gave to us as he did the same with all other foreign delegations. The report rejects the figure and all the acts of the great Stalin.

I understood the position of Khrushchev and his other companions against Stalin and his glorious acts during the meeting of the congress where Stalin's name wasn't mentioned even once for anything good, but I never thought at that time that they could ever come to this point.

I shudder when I think how much the bourgeoisie and reactionaries will rejoice when they get this report in their hands, for I'm sure will they will launch a campaign of lies and who knows how much that will last. Tito should be very glad after reading this report, as I'm sure he has read it.

What an incalculable damage for the Soviet Union and the socialist camp! What an embarrassing responsibility in front of history!

I cannot put anything onto paper. It's too little to say: 'I am shocked'!"
(Enver Hoxha. Ditar 1955-1957. Tiranë: 8 Nëntori. 1987. p. 125.)

There are also the Russian-language memoirs of the son of a Soviet diplomat in Albania, who remarked that Hoxha "cried like a baby" when Stalin died in 1953.

It's worth noting that the Soviets after 1956 treated Albania quite badly. Besides calling on it to basically give up its industrial development at the "benefit" of serving as an agricultural basis for the rest of Eastern Europe (replace "Eastern Europe" with "Yugoslavia" and you got a repeat of 1946-1947 Yugoslav-Albanian economic debates), it also withheld important food aid at a time of acute food shortages and, of course, tried to overthrow the Party leadership in favor of reliable pro-Soviet individuals.

Hoxha's diaries show his suspicions about Mao and China throughout the 1960's. In fact his very own diary notes that his visit to China all the way back in 1956 made him suspicious of Mao when Mao talked about how Stalin allegedly made "mistakes," including those concerning Yugoslavia. I know you'll suddenly go "Yugoslavia!" but then one must keep in mind that the Albanians also accused the Chinese of pressures against the Party of Labour of Albania, of attempting to have it mimic the line of the CCP following Nixon's visit (which Hoxha strongly disliked and had the Central Committee draft a letter to its Chinese counterpart criticizing the action), and of even trying to initiate a coup within the armed forces. The Chinese praising Tito the skies was the cherry on top of a consistently revisionist foreign policy.

This is what I don't get: Albania is damned as some sort of wacky country because it "isolated" itself, yet Albania is also damned for not isolating itself. What should Hoxha have done in this position, then? I already noted that he denounced Tito. Unless, of course, you adopt the ultra-left position (which I'm sure you do) that Hoxha could have done anything ever but it would not have helped because he is tainted with the evil of being the leader of a country.

I also don't see how this jibes with Albania's foreign policy being based around being anti-Yugoslav. If that was the case then why not just ally with the Brezhnevite USSR (which welcomed full relations with Albania and "praised" it as a socialist state)?

I'm sure the Yugoslavs really could have helped out the Albanians in the 1980's with mounting ethnic strife and a gigantic debt which forced Yugoslavia to initiate capitalist-esque austerity programs. Hoxha himself viewed the Yugoslav economy as being in crisis and when Tito died noted in his diary that Yugoslavia was in danger of fracturing now that he had died. Hoxha also opened up relations with West Germany and Italy, does that mean that he wanted them to be "stronger powers" as well? Is that why the 1976 Constitution banned foreign investments and reduced trade between Albania and other countries to bartering goods?

I agree but why did Yugoslavia collapsed?

The entire party denounced the agreement shortly after its formation because the Yugoslavian Party considered it to be a counter-revolutionary move. The Yugoslavians being so influential in the Albanian Party and the Albanians being more or less dependent on them, they went along. The Albanian Party certainly wanted Kosovo for a Greater Albania, whether they thought it was realistically possible is a different question. Dishnica was a member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Albanian Party. Hoxha himself was in favor of the agreement until the Party leadership were told off by the Yugoslavian delegate in Albania, Svetozar Vukmanović-Tempo. Typically, Hoxha made a complete u-turn, confessed his error and condemned his comrade, Dishnica.

There is a clear difference in tone between calling for the unity of the Kosovans and the Yugoslavians and claiming the Serbains are conducting a genocide against the Albanians in Kosovo.

Well, by betraying his comrade Spiro and paying lip-service to the Yugoslavian rule, Hoxha was risking nothing. Ever the sneaky politician, he was waiting for his time to strike.

Stalin wasn't saying "treat the Albanians like dirt" but he was saying "you can have Albania". And this during the formation of the Cominform in September 1947. Of course, Stalin had met Hoxha himself in July 1947. He claims in his memoirs that Stalin told him that: "I have acquainted myself, especially, with the heroism displayed by the Albanian people during the Anti-fascist National Liberation War" and asked him for more information which Hoxha recounts giving detailed answers. Without a doubt, not all the content and obviously not the real politics are included in the memoirs. It is however quite a poor try to claim that Stalin didn't know about the Albanian situation - of course he knew. This is a bit like claiming Obama doesn't know anything about Puerto Rican politics.

Yes, and he had majority support in the Albanian Party until the Tito-Stalin split.

No, this was the ideological explanation he gave to the already developed split. After taking power, Khrushchev had started pushing the Albanians to reach a reconciliation with the Yugoslavians. Hoxha feared the Russians might even replace him with someone more moderate towards Yugoslavia. Hoxha repeatedly refused the Russian demands for the rehabilitation of Koçi Xoxe as gesture of good will towards the Yugoslavians. following the 20th Congress of the CPSU in 1956, Hoxha formed his main argument in defense of Stalin around the charges that Titoism was at the roots of the problems of the so-called socialist countries. The note you quote is telling in how Hoxha is talking about how happy Tito will be. So in fact, the relationship with Yugoslavia was at the basis of Albania's charges of revisionism against the Russians.

A bit like Bin Ladin crying when the Tahrir square movement erupted? Psychologically telling, however politically irrelevant.

So? Politicians are supposed to be more suspicious of their allies than they are of their rivals.

I don't have to now that you did.

Hoxha himself, of course, says that Stalin made mistakes however - I'm just pointing that out to highlight what really upset him,

Publicly, not until the split I don't think. Of course, any larger power having a smaller power as a satellite would like to control the internal affairs of the smaller power. I'm sure after their experiences with the Yugoslavians and the Russians, the Albanians knew what they were getting into.

Which disturbed the Albanians because, surprise surprise, the Yugoslavians had also developed good relations with the Americans and all these overtures were connected to each other.

Oops. Perhaps the Chinese should have learned a few tricks from the Americans on how to initiate military coup d'etats in satellite countries.

No, it was simply an aspect of the same policy which led China to break with Russia and side with Albania. What disturbed the Albanians about this was that they were getting closer to the Yugoslavians, and like the Russians before them, wanted the Albanians to become closer to the Yugoslavians like them.

In the world of Stalinism, you split first and invent the ideological background later.

I am not damning them as a wacky country either because they isolated themselves or because they didn't isolate themselves. In fact I am not damning Albania as a wacky country at all. The situation is rather tragic: Albaina had the misfortune of being sold out to its one real rival by the two great imperialist powers it took shelter in. In the end, they had nowhere to go to, their economy collapsed and they started building hundreds of thousands of bunkers (militarism is often used as a remedy against economic crisis).

I am utterly uninterested what Hoxha should have done in this position or another. It has got nothing to do with him being good or evil. He was the head of a bourgeois state, and what I concern myself in regards to bourgeois states is analyzing them, not moralizing about what they should have done. I analyze Albania same as I analyze Belgium or Norway.

What would have served their interests the most? Well the only other possible move would be to go back to Russia in the Brezhnev era. Brezhnev and the Russians were much farther from the Yugoslavians than the Chinese or the Americans at the time. It probably would have kept their economy out of crisis at least until 1985. They would have gone down with the rest of the Russian block as they did of course. At least, however, we probably wouldn't have had so many Hoxhaists today.

I think the reason the Albanians didn't do this was because they were genuinely scared of the Russians. They may have felt that they had gone too far to return to the Russian sphere, and they may have feared that they were being lured into a trap, that the Russians, while they had the Albanians in their orbit, would pursue a vendetta because Hoxha and his colleagues bit the hand that was feeding them (as Khrushchev once called it). They may have felt that the price to pay for Russian support was too heavy. They may have thought that the Russians were unreliable when it came to their relations with the Yugoslavians - which was most certainly the case. In either case, other than the Russians they had nowhere else to go to, so for this or that reason they chose isolation. In regards to staying in power, it was the less risky option.

Well, yes they could have. Despite Yugoslavia's economic problems, Albanian economy was small enough for them to help - and of course no help is for free.

Tito himself said Yugoslavia will be in danger of fracturing when he was dead. Yugoslav economy was of course in crisis. However world economy in general was in crisis. It was not a surprise that Yugoslav economy was effected.

No, it means he had to open an economical window, because he had to tie Albania to the world market this way or the other in order to prevent total suffocation.

No, that is an attempt at isolationism - and it makes a small country more ripe for the eventually chosen stronger power - which did not come.

According to Dedijer, Hoxha gave the reason that he didn't condemn the Agreement at first because he wanted to see the BK split between those who were for and against the Agreement. Then Vukmanović-Tempo and Koçi Xoxe convinced Hoxha to denounce it as soon as possible. Hoxha evidently had no problem with denouncing it, considering that in his memoirs he clearly attacks the Agreement and in the History of the Party of Labor of Albania various notes are made to the effect that the CPA (through the National Liberation Movement) tried to work with all those BK members willing to defect and oppose its collaborationist program.

Obviously Albania did feel that Kosova did belong to Albania considering that Kosovar Albanians played a prominent role in the struggle for Albanian independence, the role of various Kosovar Albanians against the reactionary King Zog regime, their role in supporting the 1924 bourgeois-democratic government (which was also backed by the Comintern), etc. Tito himself noted that Kosova should have been in Albanian hands but that "Great Serb reaction" (his words) would attack the CPY and make this move impossible. Regardless, Hoxha stressed that there was no problem with Kosova remaining within Yugoslavia so long as the Kosovar Albanians were fairly treated and so long as they enjoyed cultural contacts with Albania proper.

Only because of the unequal status Kosovar Albanians had within Yugoslavia itself, as I noted above.

No, Nicholas C. Pano among others note that by "betraying his comrade Spiro" he basically saved himself as opposed to joining in with Spiro, which would have ended with both of them in an unenviable position.

It's nice to see you read bits of With Stalin, then. You should also note the parts where Stalin asks if the Albanians are related to the Caucasian "Albania" region, among other things.

"Stalin's ignorance [about Albania] was confirmed when Edvard Kardelj, Tito's foreign-policy advisor, met him around the same time. Stalin asked Kardelj questions about the origins of the Albanians, commenting, 'They seem to be a rather backward and primitive people,' to which the Yugoslav ambassador replied, 'But they are very brave and faithful'—a statement that somewhat reinforced Stalin's opinion of the Albanians, as he continued, 'Yes, they can be as faithful as a dog, that is one of the traits of the primitive.'"
(Miranda Vickers. The Albanians: A Modern History. New York: I.B. Tauris, 2000. p. 171.)

Puerto Rico is a part of the United States, not a country which historically has always been obscure until very recently. Again, it's fairly obvious that Stalin relied on the Yugoslavs for his information at first, including obviously events during the war since it isn't like Stalin read Albanian periodicals or personally visited the battlefront to communicate with partisans.

Well Yugoslavia had tried to annex Albania, probably would have had Hoxha executed if that succeeded, had formed an alliance with US imperialism, and was now praising the USSR for denouncing Stalin and evidently hoping for the Albanian leadership to be replaced.

So Hoxha is a "politician" no matter what he does. If he allies with China in the belief that the Soviets had abandoned socialist construction then he's really showing his true colors as a "bourgeois nationalist," yet when he criticizes the Chinese for initiating border disputes with the USSR, trying to reconcile with the USSR, promoting alliances with reactionary pro-US forces in the 1970's, initiating the "GPCR," etc. then he's also a "politician." Hoxha apparently can't ever win.

The military proper was actually considered rather neglected as the 1980's went by. Around 400 officers had been purged in the 1970s and variously accused of either wanting to overthrow the government with Chinese backing, wanting to disregard the "dual adversary" views of Hoxha (i.e. both US imperialism and Soviet social-imperialism must be equally combated), or of simply wanting to undermine the role of the Party. Miranda Vickers has noted that by the late 80's the military was reduced to having its members ask collective farms for sheep and such to herd and eat since the army's chain of command had broken down along with its food rationing system.

The "People's War" doctrine, which stressed self-defense by the Albanian people themselves against an external attack, was adopted in the late 60's when the economy was experiencing good economic growth and Chinese aid.

And this is where we fundamentally differ, myself as a Marxist-Leninist and you as a Left-Communist.

The Albanians were looking for trade, not economic aid. It wasn't until 1989 that the government outright called for economic aid from the West, and that was when its economy was clearly in decline and said government under Alia was praising the GDR as a "socialist" state, giving up Albania's militant foreign policy, etc.

Tito was most definitely a stalinist

You should read the history of Tito and Yugoslavia a little more closely.

Tito blocked the return of tens of thousands of Serbs who were the victims of Nazi ethnic cleansing (in conjunction with Albanian and Croatian fascists) to their homes in Kosovo. He promised Kosovo autonomy after the war but broke his promise, so he kept Serbs from coming back to the province in an attempt to make up for that.

The 1999 Kosovo war and the subsequent ethnic cleansing of Serbs from the province had a lot to do with how Tito handled these problems after the war was won.

Can we get a source for this?

Hoxha never had any problems denouncing his previous positions when he had to for his interests. Obviously he had to defend his effective positions rather than his initial positions - official histories are written based on what is done, not on initial reactions.

Yes, obviously Albania wanted Kosovo. Was this so hard to admit?

Isn't it funny how Tito and Hoxha were capable of making diplomatic statements?

Aside from unequal status being something way different than genocide, it would be extremely naive to think that this reaction of the Albanians' genuine concern about the well being of the Kosovans. They played the Kosovo card when it suited their interests, and made diplomatic statements about it when it suited their interests.

Yes, selling out comrades to save his skin - a very noble quality for a revolutionary idol.

Yes, by this logic anyone betraying their comrades to save their skin is doing the right thing. You have just justified naming names to the police in order to present Hoxha's actions as acceptable, congratulations.

The discussion Stalin and Hoxha has about the roots of the Albanians are utterly irrelevant to the question at hand. There was nothing nice about reading Hoxha, or reading Stalin and Mao for that matter - schoolchildren can write deeper theory than these three.

Again utterly irrelevant in regards to Stalin's knowledge of the actual, geo-political situation. Does show what sort of a reactionary national chauvinist he was though.

Albania is actually not that obscure a country in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Albanians actually played a prominent role in the late Ottoman Empire.

By 1947, Stalin did not just rely on the Yugoslavians as he had talks with Hoxha himself. Before too, the Stalinist practice was one of micro-management. I don't think the Russians left the practical affairs all to the Yugoslavians alone, reports from the GPU/NKDV must have been coming about Albania as well. Albania was actually a strategically important country during World War 2.

Unlikely. Hoxha would have managed to find a way to get on good terms with the Yugoslavians. He wouldn't have been so high ranking though.

He had formed relations with US imperialism, not yet a full fledged alliance.

The Yugoslavians were praising the USSR, but not simply for ideological reasons. They were hoping they could form a more equal relationship with Khrushchev: they hoped Russian imperialism under him had a softer strategy towards its allies that Russian imperialism under Stalin. The Albanians, quite rightly from their own perspective, perceived the Yugoslavians as a threat. The Yugoslavians, while they wanted tight control in Albania, weren't really worried at all about the Albanian threat - the Albanians couldn't threaten Yugoslavia.

Hoxha surely was a politician. Surely you aren't going to claim he was a doctor or an accountant?

This is not in any way responding to anything I said. Hoxha was a bourgeois nationalist, not because of the alliances he made but because he was a bourgeois nationalist, he argued that "socialism" was possible in one country, he described himself as a patriot and led a war of national liberation. His alliances and rivalries determined by his material, concrete interests as a statesman and his ideology was determined by his alliances and rivalries.

Win what? He won alright, he stayed in power till he died. That's victory enough for a guy like him.

Of course one could say he won only because he didn't live for four more years.

The situation of the army is utterly irrelevant here. What I am saying is that the militaristic production, the building of hundreds of thousands of bunkers, was an economical measure. I am not talking about any doctrines, I am talking about the concrete building of the bunkers.

Evidently. I can't expect you to view Albania as what it really was if you see it as the socialist paradise.

Trade is investment and investment is a better economic aid than economic aid.

Obviously, as they had no other choice of action left. Hoxha would have ended up doing the same thing had he been alive.

I will never for the life of me understand why people want to increase their postcount. I'd rather have a high rep-to-posts ratio :lol:

Except it wasn't a case of naming names, it was a case of building up one's forces on a tactical level. If Hoxha denounced Khrushchev immediately after the Twentieth Party Congress he'd not fare too well (although not executed) either.

Except noting how little Stalin knew about Albania.

If you read any book written in the 1910s-1980s about Albania you'll see all sorts of mentions about how obscure Albania was to non-Albanians. Parts of the country in the northern mountains had no significant contact with the outside world since medieval times. I'm well aware of Albanian influence within the Ottoman Empire, but that has little bearing on Albania itself. You could learn all about Muhammad Ali of Egypt or random Pashas of Albanian background who served the Ottoman government and you won't get much closer to learning about Albania itself (unless you read up on Ismail Qemali or something.)

Obviously today Albania isn't all that obscure (hence why I said "historically has always been obscure until very recently") but back then there were plenty of comparisons made to Tibet, Borneo, the Emirate of Bukhara, or any other random area deemed not all that popular as a travel destination for West Europeans.

He was a "politician" in the same sense as Lenin or Stalin in that he managed government affairs. He wasn't some Albanian version of Metternich.

Not really. Let's hear the changes in his ideological views from 1944-1985. Maoists would gladly note to you that he was never a Maoist, he evidently wasn't a Titoist, he opposed Khrushchev's reforms, he attacked "Eurocommunism," etc.

Of course it is, and that was the point: for Albania to engage in equal trade in order to boost its own productive forces. Again, no matter what you're going to blast the Albanian Government due to your ultra-leftism.

There was certainly "hardline" opposition to Alia's policies, e.g. from Hoxha's wife Nexhmije.

You still haven't shown that Hoxha based his ideology on whatever Yugoslavia was doing. For that matter you haven't qualified just what makes Hoxha's "brand" of "Stalinism" "insane."

You get a blue name.

...That's it, really.

It was the case of publicly denouncing someone with whom Hoxha believed in the same things, who had been turned into a scape-goat. Hoxha's attitude was a little different from those who condemned communism in the American witch trials, or confessed to being counter-revolutionaries during the Moscow trials. He voiced opinions he was dead against and sold out his own comrade to save his own skin.

Yes, better wait until you are allied with another great power to denounce your former patrons.

About the history of Albania and the roots of the Albanian people. These are completely irrelevant to Stalin's knowledge of the contemporary Albanian geo-political situation.

You are of course talking about some parts of Albania. However lets not forget that Albania was occupied during and partitioned after the World War 1. So it wasn't that obscure to the European powers. It's tends to be rather hard when a country is so close to Italy and Greece.

He was an Albanian version of Metternich, Churchill or Mussolini and Stalin was a Russian version of the same sort of people, within the limits of their respective ideologies. Good luck trying to find a backbone in the ideologies of the likes of such people.

Despite all his faults and errors, Lenin was not a politician like these gentlemen. He was a revolutionary who had a backbone; whose main concern was not his own or Russia's interests but those of the world revolution; who did not change his ideology as he made and broke alliances.

They might as much as they like. He was as much a Maoist as anyone could be until his break with China: "We are exceptionally glad that the historic Ninth National Congress of the Communist Party of China unanimously elected, in an ardent revolutionary atmosphere, the Party leadership with Comrade Mao Tse-Tung, the founder and great leader of the Communist Party of China, the outstanding Marxist-Leninist and the strategist of genius of revolution, as its leader (...) . This Central Committee is made up of revolutionaries tested in fierce class battles and in the flames of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution and boundlessly faithful to Chairman Mao Tse-Tung and to his invincible thought (...) The Albanian Communists and people who are bound by an unbreakable friendship with the Chinese Communists and people, immeasurably rejoice at the great victory of the Ninth National Congress of the Communist Party of China and they regard it as their own victory. Our hearts throb as one. We are inseparable brothers and comrades-in-arms. Our unity is steel-like (...) The Albanian Party of Labour and the entire Albanian people wholeheartedly wish that the Communist Party of China and the great Chinese people, armed with all-conquering Mao Tse-Tung thought and under the wise and far-sighted Marxist-Leninist leadership of Mao Tse-Tung, will achieve new and ever greater successes and victories on the bright road of socialism established by the Ninth National Congress. Long live the great and glorious Communist Party of China! May Chairman Mao, great leader, great Marxist-Leninist and the closest friend of the Albanian people, live as long as the mountains!" (1969) To get more Maoist than that, Hoxha would have had to proclaim that Mao was the personification of god walking among mortals.

And, although Hoxha evidently wasn't a "Titoist", there was a time where did whatever the Yugoslavian Party asked him to do, including condemning his comrades. He of course didn't like the situation but being a sneaky politician, he waited for his time to come and didn't take any risks.

Because Khrushchev wanted reconciliation with Yugoslavia.

Because he thought having followers in the "international communist movement" was important.

Who says they were to engage in equal trade? What is equal trade? Before the Stalin-Tito split, the Yugoslavians were paying the Albanians three times what the Albanian raw materials were worth and even that wasn't "equal" enough apparently, as the Albanians started complaining they weren't getting enough money.

Again, I am not interested in "blasting" the Albanian government. I've made it clear that I see it as a bourgeois government - there is nothing surprising in a bourgeois government trading, needing foreign investment, wanting to strengthen its ties to the world market.

Who was the director of the Party School and held no important ranks in the party. Shows how serious a challenge the hardline opposition posed to Alia.

I think I have, you are simply denying it because accepting it would mean giving up your own ideology. I'll simply summarize:

- Hoxha wants to oppose the Yugoslavian domination, is disciplined by the Yugoslavians and ends up doing what they tell him to do.
- Tito and Stalin split, Hoxha take the opportunity and side with Stalin, formulates his ideological opposition to Titoism from a pro-Stalin perspective.
- Stalin dies, Khrushchev wants reconciliation with the Yugoslavians and tries to force Hoxha to make gestures towards Tito. When Khrushchev criticizes Stalin, Hoxha's main reaction is to defend him by attacking Titoism.
- Khrushchev also starts having problems with the Chinese. Hoxha sides with the Chinese and together they denounce Khrushchev's revisionism. Thus, Albania ends up siding with China and leaving the Russian block.
- Forming a block of its own starts looking like a rather bad course for the Chinese so they start establishing relations with the US and more importantly with Yugoslavia. These relationships reach a high point with the Non-Aligned Movement. The Chinese don't want the Albanians to harm their new good relations with the Yugoslavians. In 1978, the Sino-Albanian split takes place, the Albanians split from the Chinese as well.

It is quite simple and quite obvious. Its your choice if you want to close your eyes to it.

Oh that has got little to do with Hoxha's or Albania's actions. Their actions were just as sane as those of any other bourgeois state. That so many people saw Albania as the socialist paradise and that some people still talk about these things (after what it was all came out) is whats behind the insanity of Hoxhaism.