Collective Community Kibbutz?
en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Kibbutz
A buddy of mine introduced this to me. I'm in college so I don't have much time to research a lot about this.
What do you guys think?
Good stuff, good results, I think an overall good model.
Too compulsive. The principle of "to each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" does not work in a monetary economy. This, in addition to communal living, lead to the demise of the kibbutzim.
What we can learn from the failure of the kibbutzim are:
1) we need more respect for the individual and personal property
2) communal living should not be the default
3) from each according to his contribution as long as some form of money exists
4) economic secession does not work
It's like a Zionist form of Communism
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Too compulsive. The principle of "to each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" does not work in a monetary economy. This, in addition to communal living, lead to the demise of the kibbutzim.
What we can learn from the failure of the kibbutzim are:
1) we need more respect for the individual and personal property
2) communal living should not be the default
3) from each according to his contribution as long as some form of money exists
4) economic secession does not work
But I thought "personal property" doesn't exist in communism?
Do you mean respect for the individual for the stability of society as a whole, not just one person?
And what exactly is communal living? What would you propose other than it?
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Originally Posted by Donovan
But I thought "personal property" doesn't exist in communism?
Possessions are not property(this is a language/semantics thing). My shirt is my shirt. That factory is the community's. I think Goti was referring to that.
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But I thought "personal property" doesn't exist in communism?
Do you mean respect for the individual for the stability of society as a whole, not just one person?
And what exactly is communal living? What would you propose other than it?
What lady catherine said, in the early kibbutzim even clothes were shared as far as I know. Productive resources are private property, clothes, tootbrushes and beds are personal property.
Communal living in the kibbutzim meant eating meals together, doing the laundry of all members of the collective, cooking for all members, children being raised in the same home (having some negative effects on the child's development), and so forth. These social relations are archaic, and should be reserved for those who explicitly want it but should not be the overall aim or aspect of the social revolution of tomorrow.
Thus, with "respect for the individual" (should have said individuality) I meant private living in communal context*; the continuation of personal possessions under socialism; and individuality in general.
*private households within a commune
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It's like a Zionist form of Communism
"zionism" started on the left of the spectrum...
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"zionism" started on the left of the spectrum...
Not really.
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Originally Posted by Paul Mason
“In the same year as the Bund, the World Zionist Organisation was founded. Its leader Theodore Herzl argued that, given this upsurge of racist violence, Jews could not survive within Gentile society and that emigration to a new Jewish state in Palestine was the only future. Herzl boasted to Europe’s rulers that Zionism was ‘taking the Jews away from the revolutionary parties’ and he rejected socialism outright.
For its part the Bund rejected Zionism as an ideology and emigration as a strategy. Its slogan was ‘Our Home is Here’.”
The left wing Bund members kept that position throughout;
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Originally Posted by Henryk Erlich, 31 July 1938
[Jewish unity] cannot involve cooperation with reactionaries... Zionism has become an ally of anti-Semitism. The worsening situation of Jews throughout the world is exploited by the Zionists. The Zionists regards themselves as second-class citizens in Poland. Their aim is the be first-class citizens in Palestine and make the Arabs second-class citizens. The Bund therefore cannot see the Zionists as partners in the struggle against the reactionary forces in Poland.
Regarding Kibbutz and abstracting it from its relationship to Israel in particular its obviously quite clear you can't have 'communal' islands within capitalism without eventually becoming co-opted. The former Kibbutz are now either nothing or business making money renting the land for weddings and the like.
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"zionism" started on the left of the spectrum...
The left of which spectrum?
If you mean the economic spectrum, you could use the same argument for Fascism or National Socialism.
If you mean the social spectrum, it makes no sense because Zionism is a nationalist movement.
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If you mean the social spectrum, it makes no sense because Zionism is a nationalist movement.
Check out Moses Hess..
"He was an early proponent of socialism, and a precursor to what would later be called Zionism. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Hess#Communism
"Hess converted Engels to Communism, and introduced Marx to social and economic problems. He played an important role in transforming Hegelian dialectical idealism theory of history to the dialectical materialism of Marxism, by conceiving of man as the initiator of history through his active consciousness."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Hess#Communism
Secondly, it was indeed a nationalist
emancipation/liberation movement- due to the oppression of Jews in Europe in the 19th century.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_and_Jerusalem
Labour Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism
Joseph Trumpeldor- "anarchist"-zionist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Trumpeldor
http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/4448I like it, why can't a group of Communists get together and do this?
Was one person whose tendency wasn't even really dominant in the Zionist movement until much later on. The Jewish working class was primarily organised through groups like the Bund which were vehemently anti-Zionist.
Some Egyptian activists have talked about using the model there. Seems like they'll have to deal with their military dictatorship first, though.
Hess seems to have been a great guy at first. His thinking devolved into race-war ideology, however, and this was long after he converted Engels. But I don't think its fair to pin the character of the Israeli race war on him, given that he died before Zionism became the apparent threat to native life that it did.
Erich Fromm is an interesting inverse to this. He was a Zionist early on, but renounced it and "threw himself behind the Palestinian cause" as his biographer put it.
There were a lot of Israelis involved in the movement who had mixed or completely obstinate views about the Palestinians, too. Einstein is a national hero in Israel, but he was highly critical of the militant Zionist movement which came to guide Israel in its formative years (a tendency still in power today). I forget the guy's name, but the Israeli general in charge of Palestinian rights was furious at Ben-Gurion when he ordered the forced emptying of some Palestinian villages to implant Jewish-only communities.
Much like Hess and these other people, the Kibbutz as a model shouldn't be judged simply based on its association with the Israeli regime.
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Was one person whose tendency wasn't even really dominant in the Zionist movement until much later on. The Jewish working class was primarily organised through groups like the Bund which were vehemently anti-Zionist.
Primarily? Around 34,000 at the beginning of the 20th century.
Was that the same Bund that was attacked by the Bolsheviks and Lenin?:rolleyes:
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Primarily? Around 34,000 at the beginning of the 20th century.
where were they organised in higher numbers?
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Was that the same Bund that was attacked by the Bolsheviks and Lenin?:rolleyes:
probably, I never said they were communists.
and you still haven't addressed the fact that Herzl specifically stated that Zionism was 'taking the Jews away from the revolutionary parties'.
"Zionism" is not one monolithic block to start with. Labour Zionism overtook "political Zionism" pre-WWII. It is true that the Bund rejected "zionism" but this led, for example, to Poale Zion. You cannot deny the role of the latter along with groups like Mapai and Histadrut labour union in laying the foundations for an Israeli state. You can also consider such figures as Bernard Lazare who was quite critical of the "bourgeois" Herzl.
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"zionism" started on the left of the spectrum...
Zionism is the jewish people trying to survive until Communism.