Immigration to communist countries
If the Eastern Bloc was such a hellhole full of famine and primitive peasants (it wasn't), then why the fuck have so many Vietnamese immigrated to Czechoslovakia in the 1980s and still happily live here even after fall of socialism and almost nobody had or has a problem with them? If there were "chronic food shortages" here under communism, then why a man from Benin who immigrated to the CSSR in early 1980s after a student exchange programme says that what he experienced here was luxury and that he has finally found a place where he has more than enough food to eat, gaining 40 kg in a few months, from his original weight of 40 kg (yes, he was severely malnourished in Benin) to 80 kg (my friend saw a documentary about him)?
The popular capitalist canard is that nobody ever immigrated to communist countries, only escaped. That's bullshit. Looking at the number of Vietnamese here, even considering many of them are second generation, I'd bet that the number of Vietnamese alone who immigrated here is bigger than the number of people who escaped to capitalist countries under communism. Yes, Vietnam is communist too, but that's not the point. The Vietnamese were not escaping from their "evil goverment", they were escaping the poverty and hunger American bombs brought them post-war, otherwise they wouldn't "escape socialism" to ... another socialist country.
Also, people generally escaped from communist countries because of political reasons, or just plain rebellion (hell, my dad admits he wanted to escape for a while when he was 19, despite having a father in the party and enough money to buy an imported Roland JX music synth). Those who immigrated here and those who escape from the third world have generally way better reasons. The "dissidents" escaped because they wanted to spread their bullshit freely, the Vietnamese and African people came here because they wanted a nice home, food, electricity, holidays (under communism a family could've afforded to go on a vacation by the sea in the summer [in the socialist bloc, typically to SFRY or Bulgaria] every year) and a dignified life. And they got it here. So who had the better reason to move? The ones who escaped from here under socialism, or those who flocked here?
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If the Eastern Bloc was such a hellhole full of famine and primitive peasants (it wasn't), then why the fuck have so many Vietnamese immigrated to Czechoslovakia in the 1980s and still happily live here even after fall of socialism and almost nobody had or has a problem with them? If there were "chronic food shortages" here under communism, then why a man from Benin who immigrated to the CSSR in early 1980s after a student exchange programme says that what he experienced here was luxury and that he has finally found a place where he has more than enough food to eat, gaining 40 kg in a few months, from his original weight of 40 kg (yes, he was severely malnourished in Benin) to 80 kg (my friend saw a documentary about him)?
The popular capitalist canard is that nobody ever immigrated to communist countries, only escaped. That's bullshit. Looking at the number of Vietnamese here, even considering many of them are second generation, I'd bet that the number of Vietnamese alone who immigrated here is bigger than the number of people who escaped to capitalist countries under communism. Yes, Vietnam is communist too, but that's not the point. The Vietnamese were not escaping from their "evil goverment", they were escaping the poverty and hunger American bombs brought them post-war, otherwise they wouldn't "escape socialism" to ... another socialist country.
Also, people generally escaped from communist countries because of political reasons, or just plain rebellion (hell, my dad admits he wanted to escape for a while when he was 19, despite having a father in the party and enough money to buy an imported Roland JX music synth). Those who immigrated here and those who escape from the third world have generally way better reasons. The "dissidents" escaped because they wanted to spread their bullshit freely, the Vietnamese and African people came here because they wanted a nice home, food, electricity, holidays (under communism a family could've afforded to go on a vacation by the sea in the summer [in the socialist bloc, typically to SFRY or Bulgaria] every year) and a dignified life. And they got it here. So who had the better reason to move? The ones who escaped from here under socialism, or those who flocked here?
Nice post. Just for the record, there were never "Communist" countries on this planet, just socialist (although even that is debatable :cool:). Sorry to be annoying, but it is just factually incorrect and as Marxists we should know the difference between socialism and communism. :)
Back on the topic, despite an
incredible media attention devoted to immigration from Cuba, what they usually forget to mention is the fact that every year Cuba receives thousands foreign students who come from mainly third world countries to study medicine at the Cuban government's expence (that is totally free). There are even students from the US! :)
Most often, the fact that irritates me very much is the indifferent attitude of "socialist" (mentioned by Toppler) countries toward use of immigrant human resource for its own development. US is at present is the world's most powerful and the first cause behind its power is its advance technology and science research. Anybody, who have little idea about US knows well that how much immigrants contributed in this field. Basically, most of the intelligentsia of US after WWII are immigrants and a large section of that is from the third world countries like India.
In comparison, USSR and other such countries rarely given importance to attract human resources around the world for its own development and sadly, Cuba and Venezuela are still continuing that trend. I am assuring that if they are willing to take such programmes (immigration encouragement), SUCCESS IS SURE.
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Nice post. Just for the record, there were never "Communist" countries on this planet, just socialist (although even that is debatable :cool:). Sorry to be annoying, but it is just factually incorrect and as Marxists we should know the difference between socialism and communism. :)
Back on the topic, despite an incredible media attention devoted to immigration from Cuba, what they usually forget to mention is the fact that every year Cuba receives thousands foreign students who come from mainly third world countries to study medicine at the Cuban government's expence (that is totally free). There are even students from the US! :)
In the context of the cold war dichotomy it is generally implied that communism is not intended to refer to Marxist communism, but rather the Soviet model which was designed to eventually create communism. The RSFSR and all of the Soviet republics and satellite states were led by the parties which were literally called communist parties as well, so it is not as if the practical usage of communism in this subject matter is unprecedented.
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Originally Posted by Toppler
then why the fuck have so many Vietnamese immigrated to Czechoslovakia in the 1980s and still happily live here even after fall of socialism and almost nobody had or has a problem with them?
I'm writing this in the assumption that you're not Czech/Slovak, if you are then Ahoj, this won't be too much news to you.
First of all it's a bit strange to mention the 1980's as a 'Dubčekist' and to sing its praises, especially when considering Gustáv Husák was on the same of the KSČ during the splits and faction-fighting which resulted in the rise of Dubček and the liberalising reforms seen throughout the country, the continuation of the Bratislava spring, and so on; yet became the loyal subject of the Moscow line and architect of the 'normalisation' process after the defeat of the Prague Spring. It seems a bit confusing to me personally. The Czechoslovak case cannot also be one which is used as an example of 'communist countries', 'soclaist states' etc, because the experience was different than that of Kádár's Hungary, PZPR controlled Poland and so on. The route which Czechoslovakia pursued under normalisation was one which reverted back to a less-than-liberalised (but not 50s neo-Stalinist) society at the same time as this trend was getting bucked elsewhere; with the exception of Honecker and East Germany. So you have to be a bit clearer here.
The argument also seems to go along the line of 'these states weren't
that bad, ergo they must be good'. Indeed, the standard of living in Czechoslovakia was higher than that of other states such as Yugoslavia, Romania and even Hungary right up until the late 1980s, but that doesn't necessarily place it as ideal. We don't place our politics amongst the 'best in a bad situation' camp, we base it on real and concrete gains for the working class.
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then why the fuck have so many Vietnamese immigrated to Czechoslovakia in the 1980s
Because they could not get visas to France or the US.
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If there were "chronic food shortages" here under communism, then why a man from Benin who immigrated to the CSSR in early 1980s after a student exchange programme says that what he experienced here was luxury and that he has finally found a place where he has more than enough food to eat, gaining 40 kg in a few months, from his original weight of 40 kg (yes, he was severely malnourished in Benin) to 80 kg (my friend saw a documentary about him)?
Well, a) having 2x better nutrition than Benin is not a big achievement, and b) limited resettlement and foreign exchange programs with pro-East Bloc third world allies is not comparable to the mass floods of immigration into the capitalist West. I have a lot of time for historically-existing socialism. And it is interesting to learn about the Vietnamese community in the former CSSR which I didn't previously know about, but this is not the best argument ever.
The nutrition was not just better than Benin for fuck's sake, the caloric intake was the 8th highest in the world by UN data, higher than Switzerland, Canada, Australia and UK...:
The man in question gained 40 kg in a few months. Is that even possible in an enviroment with a supposed "chronic food shortage"? 80 kg is not even a normal weight for a young man, it is being overweight. I currently weigh 80 kg and I can confirm I eat a lot.
http://elections.thinkaboutit.eu/wp-...odthefacts.gif
The people here were not remotely chronically undernourished. They were
fat. It is true there were lines for things like oranges etc. but calling that a "chronic food shortage" is a dishonest trick. And rationing in the CSR (it was renamed to CSSR in 1960 despite being socialist from 1948) ended guess when? In 1952.
And I am not glorifying the 1980s, I strongly disagree with Husak's normalization. The point is, even despite that, many people still went here.
Sam_B, ahoj :). Yes I am a Slovak. And this is not news to me. I dispute the statement 1980s CSSR had a better living standard than Yugoslavia through. Yugoslavia had probably the best living standards from socialist countries, followed by GDR and Hungary.
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Originally Posted by Toppler
Yugoslavia had probably the best living standards from socialist countries, followed by GDR and Hungary.
It depends how rounded you put it, I guess. On GDP alone Czech and Slovak wages surpassed that of Hungary in the 1980s, most likely due to the economic slump hurting Hungary more than Czechoslovakia, and was about comparable in the 1970s. On standards with regards to the 'liberalisation' process - ie freedom of media, criticism and the like, then of course Hungary and Yugoslavia are ahead. I'll see if I can find some figures again - though I feel the books are now back in the library (I have just finished a report on Hungarian cinema during the Kádárist era and its reflections on the 49-53 period). I'll happily concede the point though, my post wa smore for clarification purposes; perhaps important if some of the users have only a slight knowledge of Czechoslovakia.
Anyways, its always nice to have Czechs and Slovaks on the forums. You're underrepresented!
Hungary had a better living standard due to not having a shortage of non-essential consumer goods, so your buying power was greater in Hungary than in the CSSR, same about SFRY, this is why I am for market socialism, I am not a cappie, I just think that lines for oranges, bananas and a shortage of new man's underwear prove enough that a pure planned economy is going to fuck some things up a bit (althought it did not "starve the people", in fact you could eat as much as want, but no, going to a clothes shop and finding out they don't have mans underwear at the time is not something desirable, still, it worked way better than capitalism in the third world where hypermarkets are full but stomachs empty because only a few third world people can afford to actually buy anything in them).
So, people are still calling these countries Communist on this site?
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So, people are still calling these countries Communist on this site?
God, cut this crap about "pure communism".
"Communist/socialist era" is how people call the 1948-1989 era here, for Christ's sake.
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Hungary had a better living standard due to not having a shortage of non-essential consumer goods, so your buying power was greater in Hungary than in the CSSR, same about SFRY, this is why I am for market socialism, I am not a cappie, I just think that lines for oranges, bananas and a shortage of new man's underwear prove enough that a pure planned economy is going to fuck some things up a bit (althought it did not "starve the people", in fact you could eat as much as want, but no, going to a clothes shop and finding out they don't have mans underwear at the time is not something desirable, still, it worked way better than capitalism in the third world where hypermarkets are full but stomachs empty because only a few third world people can afford to actually buy anything in them).
Except the lines were not the result of the planned economy, but of other variables. Poland was probably the worst with regards to that.
Bulgaria also had little in the way of lines for consumer goods, and the Soviet Union did not have many until the 1980's, and Bulgaria's economy was strictly modelled on the Soviet Union.
SFRY ended up with more serious economic troubles because of its economy that sought to emulate capitalism. Young people with low prospects for jobs at home went by the millions to Western and Northern Europe to work temporary jobs for terrible wages and bad conditions.
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SFRY ended up with more serious economic troubles because of its economy that sought to emulate capitalism. Young people with low prospects for jobs at home went by the millions to Western and Northern Europe to work temporary jobs for terrible wages and bad conditions.
Wrong.This was actually 'popular' only in the 80-90 and before the Yugoslav wars,and the dark period during and after them.
The GDR had a big number of immigrants,mostly from other socialist countries.(or Asian countries)
And it is true that the CSSR citizens often came to the SFRY on vacations,and holidays,and it was popular,either SFRY or Bulgaria.
And the people from SFRY went to the GDR on winter holidays or to trips to Berlin.(East Berlin.West Berlin was not so popular because people from socialist countries were met with hostility)
And i also remember that there were many student exchange programs,my grandfather had many Slovak and Polish friends.That why i have tons of Bolek and Lolek video tapes. :) (Toppler is familiar with Bolek and Lolek i am sure)
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Wrong.This was actually 'popular' only in the 80-90 and before the Yugoslav wars,and the dark period during and after them.
The GDR had a big number of immigrants,mostly from other socialist countries.(or Asian countries)
And it is true that the CSSR citizens often came to the SFRY on vacations,and holidays,and it was popular,either SFRY or Bulgaria.
And the people from SFRY went to the GDR on winter holidays or to trips to Berlin.(East Berlin.West Berlin was not so popular because people from socialist countries were met with hostility)
And i also remember that there were many student exchange programs,my grandfather had many Slovak and Polish friends.That why i have tons of Bolek and Lolek video tapes. :) (Toppler is familiar with Bolek and Lolek i am sure)
SFRY was taking enormous loans from the West during the 60's and 70's, as always provided to get a leverage into the country (not the first time they've used that trick to get a country under IMF dominion). Sending workers to other countries was one way of getting hard currency for the repayment of those significant debts, and the whole debacle lead to economic turmoil starting sometime in the late 70's and this in turn bolstered nationalist tensions, as well as providing ground for the full capitalist restoration, the IMF had demands that they demanded be followed. Didn't the Stock Exchange in Belgrade open in the 80's sometime?
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Bulgaria also had little in the way of lines for consumer goods, and the Soviet Union did not have many until the 1980's, and Bulgaria's economy was strictly modelled on the Soviet Union.
Well the CSSR didn't have many lines either, and it was modeled on the USSR too. Poland and Romania were really the only economies where there was a problem getting food and the infamous "bread lines". Those who say GDR had a food shortage and bread lines are also full of bullshit. However, Hungary and SFRY had more non-essential consumer goods (except for Poland and Romania, essential ones were always available). These countries also had the most free travel/speech laws etc. There is a reason why most people from Hungary and former SFRY have a very positive view of communism. In the other Eastern Bloc countries, the memories are more bittersweet.
And of course I know Lolek and Bolek, through I watched Nu Pagadi (a Soviet cartoon) more often as a little child :).
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SFRY was taking enormous loans from the West during the 60's and 70's, as always provided to get a leverage into the country (not the first time they've used that trick to get a country under IMF dominion). Sending workers to other countries was one way of getting hard currency for the repayment of those significant debts, and the whole debacle lead to economic turmoil starting sometime in the late 70's and this in turn bolstered nationalist tensions, as well as providing ground for the full capitalist restoration, the IMF had demands that they demanded be followed. Didn't the Stock Exchange in Belgrade open in the 80's sometime?
That is correct,i was correcting you on the point of immigration pre-early 1980 (thats when Tito died and the system slowly started to collapse.
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Well the CSSR didn't have many lines either, and it was modeled on the USSR too. Poland and Romania were really the only economies where there was a problem getting food and the infamous "bread lines". Those who say GDR had a food shortage and bread lines are also full of bullshit. However, Hungary and SFRY had more non-essential consumer goods (except for Poland and Romania, essential ones were always available). These countries also had the most free travel/speech laws etc. There is a reason why most people from Hungary and former SFRY have a very positive view of communism. In the other Eastern Bloc countries, the memories are more bittersweet.
The GDR always had basic consumer good,which was a product of the Honeckers consumerism policy. The shortages were sometimes in - tropical fruits,coffee and sweets.But they were short and lets be honest,you can live without Mango.:)
The same goes for SFRY and CSSR - the people had what they needed,life was normal.(Which was not the case in a huge number of 'liberal' and 'democratic and free' countries.
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There is a reason why most people from Hungary and former SFRY have a very positive view of communism. In the other Eastern Bloc countries, the memories are more bittersweet.
The SFRY is still popular and seen as a successful state and people are generally nostalgic towards it.Hungary has seen a increase in nationalism and fascism,but i am sure people are not hateful toward communism.
In Germany,people are also 'ostalgic' - as the period of the GDR was seen as a relatively prospereous and peaceful one,so its pretty normal people are nostalgic toward the communist state.
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And of course I know Lolek and Bolek, through I watched Nu Pagadi (a Soviet cartoon) more often as a little child .
The student exchange plans were also great,youth from the USSR could go and meet German,Yugoslav and Slovak and Czech,Bulgarian and Romanian,Hungarian,Polish youth.
Well, about Hungary
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...time-life.html .
Fascism is becoming popular there because of "trauma" of them not being an empire like before WW1, but most importantly because the Jobbik fascist party is promising many social benefits. That's how fash scum recruit socialist minded people.