Anarchist arguments for participation in imperialist wars

Hi, I noticed there are a number of anarchists in the Left-Communist group. Nothing wrong with this.

The reason that they are in is because it is a group for discussing left communism not a group of left communists.

Devrim

I think internationally there are some anarchists who give support to national liberation struggles today. They are mainly to be found within the platformist current.

On the issue of the Second World War, there is general confusion.

I get the feeling though that a lot of them on Revleft are members of anarchist organisations, or actually militants. I don't think that you can damn Anarchism based on that alone.

Devrim

Are you saying that I can't damn anarchism merely because some support national wars? I think that is a fair thing to say. Or are you saying that I can't damn anarchism or any political ideology on the basis of support for national wars alone - i.e. you can be a militant and still support national wars? I think you mean the former, which is what I agree with; there are many working class anarchists with internationalist stances.

What I am saying is that you can't damn anarchism on what people on RevLeft say. To me an anarchist is somebody who is a member or a sympathiser of an anarchist organisation. I think that you can damn them on what these people say or what these organisations say, or print.

I don't think that you can damn them on the basis of some kid who calls himself an anarchist and posts on the internet.

My point of the thread was to point out that Left Communism isn't simply a branch of anarchism, or a branch of Marxism which is 'libertarian' () or a branch which is 'ultra-leftist.'

I absolutely agree.

Nevertheless, the forum seems a bit dead, so perhaps I will post it in the main forums.

Yes, maybe you could pm some of the anarchists who are registered in this group with a link. It would be good to liven it up again.

Incidentally Devrim, what are your opinions of the anarchists in Turkey?

I often defend anarchism in principle, but when it comes down to the practise there can be a lot of nonsense. I am not an expert on it. We have some people who came from anarchism recently (within the past few years). I could ask them.

To give a brief summary though, until recently there was a platformist group in Istanbul, AKİ (Anarchist Communist Initiative). They have recently dissolved. This is where a couple of our people came from. To me this group was very young, unclear, and confused.

There is a group in Ankara, Taçanka, which is involved in what we would call 'social work' in the poorer districts.

There also seems to be a new group based in İzmir, but with a few people in Ankara, which was set up by someone who was once close to us. I don't know much about this group, but it seems confused.

There are also a few anarchosyndicalists in Ankara who are trying to get things organised. I think the main guy is a worker with a couple of students around him. I spoke to him once. He seemed ok.

Devrim

Well yes, merely because you call yourself an anarchist does not make you one, otherwise anarchism would mainly (at least in the US) be a teenage punk rock trend. But I don't criticize it for that.

Yes, that's what I was saying.

However, what about the man from that Irish (I think) platformist group which gave support to national liberation struggles - from memory his name is Wayne Price. Yet, the organization's platform was different to what the individual was saying. What about this situation?

Wayne Price is a member of the US group NEFAC. The person who was involved in it from Ireland was Andrew Flood/Joe Black.

In this case yes, I think it is right. Wayne Price is a particularly prolific writer, and his articles are published by the platformist current. In fact I think that the whole argument started after my next door neighbour read a translation of one of his articles in a Turkish magazine.

The problem I think is that anarchism is difficult to define, since it defines itself with vague terms.

Yes, it does. The platformist current talks about 'theoretical unity' but they still seem to be very incoherent.

Out of interest, how do you defend it in principle?

It isn't a big deal. I just say that there can be a revolutionary anarchism, and that they are not that bad, and then people look at what they actually do.

Neither am I. I do think, however, that anarchists are closer to us than Maoists or Stalinists.

I know the general tendencies. I just don't keep up with it all. I think there are individuals within it that are closer to us, but the general trend is confusionism.

Devrim

Iyou can damn Anarchism based on that alone.

Devrim

Well a lot of "anarchists" here are americans, so organizations are not as formalized as in Europe or even places like Mexico. Still, a lot of folks here are members of the IWW, which is pretty much dominated by anarchists, and informal collectives that dot all the States. For example, I have never heard of a formal anarchist organizaton in my area, but there are organizations like SEJ, SDS, and collectives in inner-city Lansing. I also saw some Crimethinc graffitti in my campus.

Hi, I noticed there are a number of anarchists in the Left-Communist group. Nothing wrong with this. But I would like to provoke a discussion on what anarchists perceive as a 'just war' and when they argue for worker participation in it.

I post two articles, both are not very long, and are clear about their message.

Anarchist arguments for participation in bourgeoisie wars.

Anarchism and the patriotic resistance.

So, anarchists, what are your views on these articles and when do you think it is okay to argue for participation in imperialist wars? Do you think such views are reconcilable with Left-Communism?

Thank you.

I have read the mentioned articles, but I can state my own position on it.
I tend to sympathise with the Left Com position on National Liberation and Imperialist Wars .
I don't support National Liberation struggles - I think they're in total conflict with the class interests of the proletariat.
I don't support Imperialist Wars or involvements in them.

I don't know enough about WWII to be able to make an informed judgement on it (Ironically, I spent a year studying it...but bourgeois education never really does much for you), but I think that its safe to say that both sides conflicted with the class interests of the proletariat (once again), and involvement in the allies allied the proletariat with the bourgeoisie, and ultimately, re-led to their suppression (as these wars always do).

blah blah. I 'm rambling.

Yes you are. However...that's not really a bad thing. Personally, I expected a rather more hostile response to the OP, but being wrong isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

I think that there are many anarchists who are internationalists. I don't find it surprising.

Devrim

That's not what I meant. I expected a response to the OP's basically accusing anarchists of a position not all of them take using sources from a left communist organization that is clearly hostile to that position. I suspected a hostile response to the content (not all anarchists are chauvinists, in fact, most aren't!) and to the methodology (you don't even cite an anarchist source!) of the OP.

I expected some outrage, damnit!

Sorry!