http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6579/ What are your opinions on this work? I've been reading this kinda slow, and I don't know what to make of it, there are some positive ideas, but I'm also finding some holes in it. I'm only on chapter 8. However the holes I'm finding is that the calculations of the formulas for self accounting are very optimistic. GIK does admit these are hypothetical, but saying that the GSU (Public/ non-productive) establishments will only take a very minor part of the general social product. (For those who havent read this work, this means that every worker on the LTV system isn't paid for their full hours, because a reserve is partitioned for the non productive sector, so every worker is alotted less to the general social product.) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6579/6part3.htm Where I live most of the workers work in non-productive establishments, myself included. So the reserve in of the GSP would be larger where I live for the GSU, possibly larger than the produtive establishments. Also, the GIK thought they made a positive by paying everyone the same-- an hour of any labour equals any other type of labour, instead of the system where intellectuals and formen get paid more envisioned by Kautsky. The problem I see in this is that labour is totally unkkown in its value-- what's strenuous for you, could be easy for me and vice versa. What I've read so far this doesn't take into account that during a revolution workers will wheel-barrow their bosses out of the establishments-- this will mean that workers will take on more duties. Aswell as former bosses having to take on more menial tasks. A postive in these principles is that this work emphasizes on that the workers must have control over their products and labour-- that this is the corner stone of Communism. The class of statiticians are done away with, either they are by the balls of the workers, and/or the workers account for their establishments directly, and such direct accounting can take place to local, regional, national, continental even global levels (the book ofcourse was published in 1930, and can't mention the easiness we have now with our communication systems). The capitalists sneer and jeer about how the workers can't possibly determine what to produce for the populace, but this work addresses this problem by relying on the fact that the producers are also consumers, and that measures can be made about through groups asking for such products to be made or not made (especially owing now to this age of technology). Still, with this is mind I can't help but be skeptical-- sure, LTVs help the accounting process over resources, but this system is envisioned for the time of transition, meaning that not every establishment will be under LTVs if not workers control, so I've not heard an answer about what to do if other establishments do not honour the LTVs. Also, I haven't heard of what degree of centralization has to place in order to coordinate distribute LTVs-- will banks be necessary, if so, what are their functions, who has control over these banks? I cannot foresee banks operatating, seeing how LTVs do not accumulate-- once I've made a purchase, the currency in the exchange dissipates, no one can turn around and use this LTV for any other exchange. Finally, the most obvious factor, the workers would have to accept this system in order for it to function, and theres really no telling of what the workers system of production and distribution will actually be like.
Any one have any opinions on the LTV system? Like criticisms, argeements, or what they think would be a better system.
I haven't read this, but the things that I have read about it weren't that positive. The LTV is basically a money form. Devrim
There's an interesting discussion on libcom on this. http://libcom.org/forums/thought/wou...ciety-28012008 It began with the question 'would there be exchange in an anarchist society' and moved on to discussion about the views of the GIK, Italian elft etc on the transition period and in particular labour time vouchers. Have you read our book on the Dutch left Kablamo? there is a substantial section dealing with the Grundprinzipien. We will try to get that bit online soon.
No I haven't read that book. Also, I haven't heard of the Grundprinzipien. Thanks for the link!
You're welcome. Grundprinzipien is just the basic principles of communist production in German - the same work. I met its (main) author, Jan Appel, back in 1974, at an international conference in Paris!
