What does it mean to be a “Revolutionary Marxist”?

  1. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    There are quite a few people that have set it as their tendency, but in what way is it different from every other tendency?
    I mean I see people who do not really have quite the same views have it as tendency.
    So is it anything specific or just a broad name that can be identified with by multiple groups?
  2. Drosophila
    It's been a group designed for Marxists of all tendencies since the group's earliest days. If you look back into some of the older discussions, you'll see that many different tendencies participated in discussion.
  3. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    Ok then what does "the merger of [Marxism] and the worker movement" (Kautsky) and solve the crises of theory” mean?
  4. Drosophila
  5. Marxaveli
    Marxaveli
    While it is designed for all tendencies, I view it as being a group for Orthodox Marxists first and foremost - that is, Marxists who reject sectarianism and go back to the principles and foundations of what Marx and Engles wrote, and use these as the standard to create a bottom-up, revolutionary Proletarian movement. We strongly embrace Historical and Dialectical Materialism as core tenets within Marxism that should never be revised, as well as Internationalism. We view Marxism as a science and tool necessary for social change - not that other tendencies don't, but they often revise key tenets within orthodox Marxism that ends up defeating the purpose of it. For all other Marxists that followed in his and Engels footsteps, be it Luxumburg, Kautsky, Lenin, or whoever....we take what is good and compatible with orthodox Marxism and build from that. If it isn't compatible, we of course, reject it. That is why we don't subscribe to any particular tendency. I consider myself a very strict adherent to Orthodox Marxism, and I am very skeptical of revising any of its core tenets as groups like Marxist Leninists, Trotskyites, Left Commies, Maoists, and so many others have done; in particular the tenets I mentioned above. I can't speak for the rest of the group but I suspect they more or less feel the same way based on their views.
  6. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    Ok, thanks for the explanations, including L'Enferme's on my profile, I still want t know what is meant by solving the crisis theory.
    Also, what are works that I have to read to understand Orthodox Marxism, since apparently that is what this is, besides Marx and Engels of course.
  7. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Orthodox Marxism actually refers to Second International Marxism. "Marx and Engels" is Classical Marxism.
  8. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    What's the difference?
  9. Marxaveli
    Marxaveli
    I'd like to know the same thing as well, what are the theories between the two that distinguish them?
  10. Art Vandelay
    'Orthodox Marxism' was an attempt by the 2nd international and its various thinkers at simplifying, codifying, and systematizing Classical Marxism.
  11. The Idler
    The Idler
    Does Martov count as Classical Marxism?
  12. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    No, he was a Menshevik.
  13. Marxaveli
    Marxaveli
    I looked up Classical Marxism and Orthodox Marxism on Wikipedia, and they said the same thing you guys did pretty much. I guess in a sense I am both a Classical and Orthodox Marxist, since I uphold the principles of Marx and Engels, but also view Marxism as a science and systemic mode of analysis for observing social phenomena. *shrugs*
  14. Ostrinski
    Martov was an Orthodox Marxist.
  15. Q
    Q
    Martov was an Orthodox Marxist.
    Yeah, whatever Martov's later shortcomings, he was within the sphere of Orthodox Marxism. As were most Mensheviks, besides the Bolsheviks.
  16. Ostrinski
    I thought some of his misgivings about the Bolsheviks were fair. Not that I agree with them (though some have a bit of merit).

    Ironically many of the popular histories of the Russian Revolution name the Mensheviks as the Orthodox Marxists and the Bolsheviks as more unconventional, such as in Ravinowitch's Prelude to Revolution where he says

    "Thus on the eve of 1905, the Marxist Social Democratic movement was already split by differences between the more orthodox Mensheviks and the ideologically flexible, more radically inclined Bolsheviks." (pg. 11)

    A few pages later he labels the Menshevik position as Orthodox Marxist because of their claims of needing to build a developed bourgeois society before socialism is possible. Nothing relevant of course because Dr. Rabinowitch is most likely simply guilty of an elementary misunderstanding but its funny because most everyone here looks quite positively on the Bolsheviks.

    Both the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks fall within the sphere because they were both mass parties with minimum and maximum programs (even if it was much more stratified for the Mensheviks).

    Idler is asking because the organization that he is either sympathetic to or a member of (SPGB) looks positively upon the Mensheviks and is probably confused by our answers of placing both the Bolsheviks and Menshevik-Internationalists overall within the same trend because of the org's anti-Bolshevik hysteria.
  17. l'Enfermé
    Nah. Martov was absolutely worthless since he became a leader of the liquidators. This creature was quite proud of leading the left-wing of the Mensheviks though members of the central committe of the Menshevik party served as ministers in Kerensky's government. This creature was quite proud of his leading role in the Two-and-a-half International, the International which was founded by the right-wing remnants of the French SFIO(the majority of the party, making up the left-wing, split formed the SFIC), the right-wing remnants of the German USPD(the majority of the party, its left-wing, merged with the KPD to found the VPKD which later renamed itself back to KPD), the right-wing remnants of the Italian PSI(the left-wing split to found PCd'I) and other such opportunists and traitors. No. Martov was as worthless as they get, ever since the split in Iskra.
  18. Ostrinski
    As I understood it, it was the Defencists that served as ministers and were condemned by the Internationalists for doing so? Martov and the Internationalists were opposed to a coalition government. What they should be criticized for is not splitting the party, which was cowardice I would say.
  19. l'Enfermé
    Condemned? It matters very little that they condemned them. That's just words and empty air. Their(the "Internationalists") actions speak much louder. Even though no one forced them to, they remained in the Menshevik Party even though leading Mensheviks and Menshevik CC members actively participated in the bourgeois Provisional Government. This is not cowardice but outright treason. They abandoned their socialist principles which they supposedly held and they betrayed the working class. Martov did not display any of this "cowardice" when actively opposing the Bolshevik regime, comrade.
  20. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    Condemned? It matters very little that they condemned them. That's just words and empty air. Their(the "Internationalists") actions speak much louder. Even though no one forced them to, they remained in the Menshevik Party even though leading Mensheviks and Menshevik CC members actively participated in the bourgeois Provisional Government. This is not cowardice but outright treason. They abandoned their socialist principles which they supposedly held and they betrayed the working class. Martov did not display any of this "cowardice" when actively opposing the Bolshevik regime, comrade.
    Trotsky was an internationalist who had the balls to leave the party and join the bolsheviks, so Martov and the rest of the party were cowards, he was cuddling with the bourgeois and labor aristocracy from day one.
  21. Anglo-Saxon Philistine
    If I have understood the group correctly, it is an attempt at a regroupment of Marxists and the construction of a mass proletarian party based on the classical Marxist principles as codified by Engels and Kautsky before the latter went renegade.
  22. Q
    Q
    If I have understood the group correctly, it is an attempt at a regroupment of Marxists and the construction of a mass proletarian party based on the classical Marxist principles as codified by Engels and Kautsky before the latter went renegade.
    That would be a valid summary, yes
  23. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    I definitely think the Transitional Programme has a lot of significance, which cannot be overlooked.
  24. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    Oh ok.
  25. Anglo-Saxon Philistine
    I agree - the transitional programme can be misread as economist, but understood properly, and placed in its proper context (obviously we should adapt the demands to the present situation - e.g. in Croatia the transitional political demands might include reforming the judiciary etc. etc.) I think it is a powerful tool for winning over reformist workers, and those subordinated to some reformist or revisionist bureaucracy.

    And Martov was, for all intents and purposes, a member of the centre of the Menshevik Party, with open defencists and social-tsarists like Plekhanov being the extreme right, and "revolutionary" defencists like Chkheidze being the "respectable" right. Martov's group would be the centre, whereas certain elements of the Mezhrayonka (Ezhov, Uritsky and others) and Larin's Menshevik-Internationalist groups would be the left.
  26. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    I agree - the transitional programme can be misread as economist, but understood properly, and placed in its proper context (obviously we should adapt the demands to the present situation - e.g. in Croatia the transitional political demands might include reforming the judiciary etc. etc.) I think it is a powerful tool for winning over reformist workers, and those subordinated to some reformist or revisionist bureaucracy.

    And Martov was, for all intents and purposes, a member of the centre of the Menshevik Party, with open defencists and social-tsarists like Plekhanov being the extreme right, and "revolutionary" defencists like Chkheidze being the "respectable" right. Martov's group would be the centre, whereas certain elements of the Mezhrayonka (Ezhov, Uritsky and others) and Larin's Menshevik-Internationalist groups would be the left.
    Right, ultralefts don't see the value of something like a minimum wage campaign due to their sectarianism.